New Pitcher???

[DRJ1960]

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

Too late.

The new pitcher is in the game when she's listed as such ... LONG before she gets out there to start warming up, and definitely before she actually throws a warmup.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

I think you are saying an actual substitution, not a position change, in which case as Mike said, when reported.
Then, if the first pitcher was removed, it would be a re-entry.

If the first pitcher was just repositioned, then the second would have to either leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry or be repositioned.

[Manny A]

Well, as others have said, a substitution takes place when it's reported.

Problem is, sometimes it takes a while for the head coach to report the pitching change to the umpire, either in between innings, or when he/she goes directly to the circle during an inning and then goes to the umpire with the change. In those cases, I would argue that the guidance on unreported subs under 3-3-3b prevails, and the substitution happens when "a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate."

[DRJ1960]

coach's story was that umps allowed the coach to withdraw the substition as if it never happened.....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think you are saying an actual substitution, not a position change, in which case as Mike said, when reported.
Then, if the first pitcher was removed, it would be a re-entry.

If the first pitcher was just repositioned, then the second would have to either leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry or be repositioned.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the book here and could be mixing rulesets...

But if a pitcher comes in (whether repositioned or from the bench), they MUST pitch to the next batter - they cannot, as you intimate, leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry until after pitching to 1 batter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

coach's story was that umps allowed the coach to withdraw the substition as if it never happened.....

There could easily be more to this story.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the book here and could be mixing rulesets...

But if a pitcher comes in (whether repositioned or from the bench), they MUST pitch to the next batter - they cannot, as you intimate, leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry until after pitching to 1 batter.

In FED, I don't believe there is a requirement for a pitcher to pitch to one batter. One of the plays in the casebook has a coach requesting to change his starting pitcher right after the plate conference. The book says that is legal, and the reported starting pitcher on the lineup card has one re-entry available.

In NCAA, rule 8.5.2.1 states, "The pitcher may be removed from the pitching position before having delivered a pitch, whether or not the first batter facing her has completed her turn at bat and whether or not the side has been retired." So there is no requirement there either.

I can't answer for ASA, since I don't have the rulebook handy.

[MD Longhorn]

I retract my severe wrongativity.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the book here and could be mixing rulesets...

But if a pitcher comes in (whether repositioned or from the bench), they MUST pitch to the next batter - they cannot, as you intimate, leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry until after pitching to 1 batter.

The only time I know of a requirement to face a batter is if the pitcher of record in the top of the first inning had a courtesy runner that ran for them then they are required to face the first batter (interp as throw one pitch). That is in 8-9 (don't have book with me) in NFHS.

[MD Longhorn]

I think I had baseball on the brain... which is rare considering I work about 95% softball.

[RKBUmp]

FED changed the rule I believe it was this year on when a substitute becomes official.

3-3-e ....when the ball is declared live by the plate umpire.

So, under the original post the coach can change his mind prior to the umpire declaring the ball live and it would not count as a substitution.

[Ed Maeder]

RKB is correct for Fed Rule set. This is not a change, but a difference from ASA rule set. Would be a good change for Fed to look at.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

FED changed the rule I believe it was this year on when a substitute becomes official.

3-3-e ....when the ball is declared live by the plate umpire.

So, under the original post the coach can change his mind prior to the umpire declaring the ball live and it would not count as a substitution.

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

RKB is correct for Fed Rule set. This is not a change, but a difference from ASA rule set. Would be a good change for Fed to look at.

Re-read that rule, 3-3-e. It applies (ONLY) when substitutions are unannounced, not when announced.

If the plate umpire has reported a change to the opposing head coach (as specified now), the substitution is official, and, assuming a substitution, not simply a defensive change, the returning pitcher is now a re-entry.

Not different than ASA (other than a warning then restriction under 3-6-7) with respect to when official.

[RKBUmp]

I would agree that is the way it reads, but is not the way it was presented at the preseason rules meetings. We were instructed that until the ball is declared live substitutions are not official.