New Pitcher???

[DRJ1960]

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

Too late.

The new pitcher is in the game when she's listed as such ... LONG before she gets out there to start warming up, and definitely before she actually throws a warmup.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

I think you are saying an actual substitution, not a position change, in which case as Mike said, when reported.
Then, if the first pitcher was removed, it would be a re-entry.

If the first pitcher was just repositioned, then the second would have to either leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry or be repositioned.

[Manny A]

Well, as others have said, a substitution takes place when it's reported.

Problem is, sometimes it takes a while for the head coach to report the pitching change to the umpire, either in between innings, or when he/she goes directly to the circle during an inning and then goes to the umpire with the change. In those cases, I would argue that the guidance on unreported subs under 3-3-3b prevails, and the substitution happens when "a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I think you are saying an actual substitution, not a position change, in which case as Mike said, when reported.
Then, if the first pitcher was removed, it would be a re-entry.

If the first pitcher was just repositioned, then the second would have to either leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry or be repositioned.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the book here and could be mixing rulesets...

But if a pitcher comes in (whether repositioned or from the bench), they MUST pitch to the next batter - they cannot, as you intimate, leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry until after pitching to 1 batter.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the book here and could be mixing rulesets...

But if a pitcher comes in (whether repositioned or from the bench), they MUST pitch to the next batter - they cannot, as you intimate, leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry until after pitching to 1 batter.

In FED, I don't believe there is a requirement for a pitcher to pitch to one batter. One of the plays in the casebook has a coach requesting to change his starting pitcher right after the plate conference. The book says that is legal, and the reported starting pitcher on the lineup card has one re-entry available.

In NCAA, rule 8.5.2.1 states, "The pitcher may be removed from the pitching position before having delivered a pitch, whether or not the first batter facing her has completed her turn at bat and whether or not the side has been retired." So there is no requirement there either.

I can't answer for ASA, since I don't have the rulebook handy.

[MD Longhorn]

I retract my severe wrongativity.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the book here and could be mixing rulesets...

But if a pitcher comes in (whether repositioned or from the bench), they MUST pitch to the next batter - they cannot, as you intimate, leave the game and be replaced by some other sub or re-entry until after pitching to 1 batter.

The only time I know of a requirement to face a batter is if the pitcher of record in the top of the first inning had a courtesy runner that ran for them then they are required to face the first batter (interp as throw one pitch). That is in 8-9 (don't have book with me) in NFHS.

[MD Longhorn]

I think I had baseball on the brain... which is rare considering I work about 95% softball.

[RKBUmp]

FED changed the rule I believe it was this year on when a substitute becomes official.

3-3-e ....when the ball is declared live by the plate umpire.

So, under the original post the coach can change his mind prior to the umpire declaring the ball live and it would not count as a substitution.

[DRJ1960]

coach's story was that umps allowed the coach to withdraw the substition as if it never happened.....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

coach's story was that umps allowed the coach to withdraw the substition as if it never happened.....

There could easily be more to this story.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by DRJ1960

FED ruleset
Coach asked me this yesterday:"When is the new pitcher actually in the game?"

Allegedly...
Opposing coach approached Plate Umpire between innings to change pitchers. The "new" pitcher has thrown a single warm up pitch when the coach "changes his mind" and wants to return to the "prior" pitcher and not make the substitution at all.

So - my takeaway from the discussion of this situation is that the player is in the game (substitution is official), but does not have to pitch.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by marvin

So - my takeaway from the discussion of this situation is that the player is in the game (substitution is official), but does not have to pitch.

That is correct. The substitution, if reported to opposing coach, has been made. If the coach wants to re-enter the starter, then that is what the coach is doing; a re-entry, a new substitution, not undoing the prior substitution.

And, there is no requirement that anyone that has thrown a warmup pitch must pitch to a batter. One of those myths that follow the game, like "the hands are part of the bat". Unfortunately, when the coaches get to write rules, the myths can become reality ("have to pull bat back after to squaring to bunt" is one example starting in NCAA after never actually being a rule anywhere).

[chapmaja]

Here are a questions though.


Let's say that #21 has been pitching the first 3 innings. To start the 4th inning, #22 (who had been SS), comes in to pitch and #21 goes to SS (they switch places).

#22 takes her 5 warmup pitches, then the coach decides to switch them back.

Does #21 get any warmup pitches when the switch is made.

Now after 4 batters, #22 and #21 are switched back. Does #22, who already took her 5 warmup pitches get any warmup pitches. She had not pitched to a batter, but had already taken 5 warm up pitches and had previously taken a position on the pitchers plate.