Dead Ball Penalty

[Chess Ref]

Standard high school set up in our area. Temporary fences that stretch from foul line to foul line. There is a gap from foul line to dead ball line, usually a chalked line.

Any balls that go beyond fence in foul territory are ruled 2 base award (ground rule double).

Batter hits one over F5's head, lands, and starts tailing into foul territory. F7 runs over, knocks the ball down, and as she is reaching for the ball, kicks it past the temporary fence.

I ruled 2 bases from time of pitch. Offensive coach stated she should get an extra base.

I'm thinking 8-4-3h is the applicable rule ?

Thoughts ?

[Manny A]

8-4-3h is applicable if the ball deflects off the fielder and goes into DBT. You have a case where the fielder provided the additional impetus that sent the ball into DBT that would have otherwise stayed in play.

So I think the appropriate rule would be 8-4-3f, and it should be two bases from the time of the "kick".

[MNBlue]

I have a 2 base award from the TOP.

8-4-3f pertains to when the defense gains possession of the ball and then throws it out of play.

f. the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked by the defense.

PENALTY: (Art. 3f) All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner.

8-4-3h pertains to an uncontrolled batted ball that goes out of play:

h. a fair ball bounces over or rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. Also, when it deflects off of a defensive player and goes out of play in foul territory, deflects off a runner or umpire and goes out of play after having passed an infielder excluding the pitcher and provided no other fielder had a chance to make an out.

PENALTY: (Art. 3h) The ball is dead and all runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I have a 2 base award from the TOP.

8-4-3f pertains to when the defense gains possession of the ball and then throws it out of play.


8-4-3h pertains to an uncontrolled batted ball that goes out of play:

So, ball is hit down the line and stops just short of DBT. F7 goes after it, and the BR is rounding second going to third. F7 stumbles and inadvertently kicks the ball, which makes it go into DBT. We're supposed to kill play and send the BR back to second base, even though she had an easy triple??

I don't think that's what 8-4-3H intended.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, ball is hit down the line and stops just short of DBT. F7 goes after it, and the BR is rounding second going to third. F7 stumbles and inadvertently kicks the ball, which makes it go into DBT. We're supposed to kill play and send the BR back to second base, even though she had an easy triple??

I don't think that's what 8-4-3H intended.

What if I'm the BR and I'm still not to 1B when the ball goes out of play. Are you going to leave me at 1B or are you going to put me on 2B?

If you put me on 2B, what gives you the authority to put a rabbit on 3B?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So, ball is hit down the line and stops just short of DBT. F7 goes after it, and the BR is rounding second going to third. F7 stumbles and inadvertently kicks the ball, which makes it go into DBT. We're supposed to kill play and send the BR back to second base, even though she had an easy triple??

I don't think that's what 8-4-3H intended.

I believe you are incorrect about intentions here.

Consider a similar case - typical ground rule double - bouncer over the homerun fence. Rabbit on 1st scores before the ball even bounces ... we put that runner back on 3rd anyway.

If the kick was inadvertent, we simply have a fair batted ball out of play - 2 bases from TOP. Period.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

What if I'm the BR and I'm still not to 1B when the ball goes out of play. Are you going to leave me at 1B or are you going to put me on 2B?

I mentioned 8-4-3f, and said that the Effect should be two bases from the time of the kick. So if the BR is only on first base when it happens, she gets awarded third. If she's on second, then she scores.

Or perhaps the appropriate ruling is one base from when the ball enters DBT, using the 8-4-3f Exception 1. And that would be in line with the catch-n-carry rule, 8-4-3i.

But I don't agree that it should be a TOP award.

[tcannizzo]

If outfielder kicks a softball through the 15' gap between the end of the temporary fence and the chain link fence enclosing the field, wouldn't we have:
"GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLL"

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA addressed this a couple years ago and I agree. Don't see why it would be different for HS.

If the player provides the impetus that causes the ball to enter DBT, it is two bases from the time it left the player's foot/leg/whatever, just as if the player threw the ball.

Of course, you have a load of idiots who want to argue that a hard hit ball hitting the arm or shoulder of a player trying to get in front of it cause it to leave play, but that is not what it should be. We are talking about a ball that without the player's contact pushing the ball out of play would not have.

Too much overthinking the issue. If you feel the ball was losing power and then regains speeds and often changes direction, it probably is not a deflected ball "off" the defender, but a ball that was deflected by the defender.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA addressed this a couple years ago and I agree. Don't see why it would be different for HS.

If the player provides the impetus that causes the ball to enter DBT, it is two bases from the time it left the player's foot/leg/whatever, just as if the player threw the ball.

Of course, you have a load of idiots who want to argue that a hard hit ball hitting the arm or shoulder of a player trying to get in front of it cause it to leave play, but that is not what it should be. We are talking about a ball that without the player's contact pushing the ball out of play would not have.

Too much overthinking the issue. If you feel the ball was losing power and then regains speeds and often changes direction, it probably is not a deflected ball "off" the defender, but a ball that was deflected by the defender.

Mike, was this in the monthly rules clarifications? (iow, can you provide a citation) and yes, I agree with your premise. just looking for where to cite the clarification.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Mike, was this in the monthly rules clarifications? (iow, can you provide a citation) and yes, I agree with your premise. just looking for where to cite the clarification.

This was posted in a thread last September.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This was posted in a thread last September.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

thanks! next round on me at Chisolms

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This was posted in a thread last September.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

It baffles me why ASA would use a case play whose "result" is the same as a book/ground rule double. If they want to illustrate the point, they should really use "R1 on 1st base who has reached 2nd base when F7 kicks the ball."

They explain the ruling, but do a disservice to their own explanation by making it look like a regular two base award on a batted ball.

Not their greatest clarification.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

It baffles me why ASA would use a case play whose "result" is the same as a book/ground rule double. If they want to illustrate the point, they should really use "R1 on 1st base who has reached 2nd base when F7 kicks the ball."

They explain the ruling, but do a disservice to their own explanation by making it look like a regular two base award on a batted ball.

Not their greatest clarification.

Not only that, the play is totally far-fetched to begin with. Unless F7 is Lionel Messi, there's no way in hell a kicked ball from out there would enter the third base dugout before R1, who was heading to third on the hit, reaches third and the BR reaches first.

Of course, since the play mentioned that F7 was a male, maybe both R1 and the BR are in the neighborhood of 400 lbs. Then it would be more realistic.