Penalty assessments on dead ball fouls

[gtwbam]

A's ball 3rd and 1 from the 50 yard line. A runs their play and gains no yardage. After the whistle B Piles on, afterwhich A strikes B in the helmet.
My question is regarding the mechanics after the play. Does everyone step-off the dead ball penalties separately even though the yardage offsets each other or not?

[AndrewMcCarthy]

You should. Signal one, march it off, signal the other, march back.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

I'd like to go into a bit more detail here, since I believe Andrew left out one very important step (in bold below):

1. S7 ("Dead ball foul" or maybe "after the play")
2. S38 ("Personal foul")
3. Point at defense ("on the defense")
4. March it off (possibly saying "15-yard penalty" before that)
5. S8 ("That penalty results in a first down.")
6. S7 ("Dead ball foul" or "after the play")
7. S38 ("Personal foul")
8. Point at offense ("on the offense")
9. S47 ("That player is ejected for fighting.")
10. March it off (again, possibly noting the yardage)
11. S8 (Yes, I would do this again here, probably saying simply "First down.")

[MJT]

I hope a lot of guys chip in on this one as to what their crew does in this situation cuz we were debating this just today. I say do as TRUmpire says but another on my crew says no.

Please respond giving your opinion and what your crew does.

[ljudge]

I agree with TRU, but if the fouls occurred in an area where there's no "half the distance" kicking in AND team A was the first to foul I would simply say "the distance offsets." If team B were to foul first then definitely walk it off because after the first walkoff you can give the first down signal and avoids confusion about why a new series was awarded.

[SouthGARef]

You should ALWAYS march off dead ball fouls. In this situation it is very key because the first foul is on B and it gives A a first down.

I know sometimes in our heads we know that when we get done marching it off and then having the same down/distance, but that leads to problems. And in my opinion, we should do it the same way every time--if for no other reason than it helps the coaches to understand why we're doing something.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

I'd like to go into a bit more detail here, since I believe Andrew left out one very important step (in bold below):

Agreed. I just read his basic question- not the play scenario.

The play outlines exactly why we do this. If you stay at the same spot and just award the first down people won't know what the heck is going on.

Worse yet- stay at the same spot and keep it 4th down. Not good at all.

[wisref2]

Can someone give the rule citation that gives A a first down on this one. I don't have my books handy. With dead ball fouls, doesn't the rule say that ALL penalties must be enforced prior to determining first down. The personal foul isn't an automatic first down, and after enforcing all penalties, A is still short of the line-to-gain.

[Warrenkicker]

10.2.4 SITUATION A: With third and 8 on B's 40, A1 advances to B's 35 where he is downed. B1 piles on and, almost immediately thereafter, A2 spears B1. RULING: Both dead-ball fouls will be penalized in the order of their occurrence. This is not a double foul. However, since the yardage penalties offset, the proper signals will be given and the line-to-gain equipment will be set first and 10 from B's 35 since the foul by B1 gave A a new series. However, if A2's foul had occurred first, it would not be a new series. If A2's spearing is judged to be flagrant, he shall be disqualified. (9-4-2i; 10-4-4b))

10-2-4 Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in the order of their occurrence. A dead-ball foul is not coupled with a live-ball foul or another dead-ball foul to create a double or multiple foul.

5-1-2 A new series of downs is awarded:
a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul by B.
b. After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, except a non-player or unsportsmanlike foul.

[wisref2]

Is there an emoticon for "slapping oneself with a wet noodle."

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by MJT

I hope a lot of guys chip in on this one as to what their crew does in this situation cuz we were debating this just today. I say do as TRUmpire says but another on my crew says no.

Please respond giving your opinion and what your crew does.

I would do it exactly as TRU and MJT say. I would make sure that I record the number of the ejected player so I can get his name and school to the state as he is not going to play in the next game.

The order of the occurance of the fouls is critical here.

In these situations, THINK about the play and your procedure and TAKE YOUR TIME. Get it right.