Check Swing Appeal on U3K

[tcannizzo]

This has not happened but to me personally, but...

Pitch is low, batter tries to check swing, PU calls Ball. Pitch touches ground and gets by F2 and rolls to backstop. When F2 gets back to plate area, F2 appeals the check swing. PU says, "YES!". F2 tags B. Here comes OC.

All I can think of is "too sad, too bad". Even with 10.C.3.

Just askin'...

[RadioBlue]

A couple of things here that might need some clarification:
1) I'm assuming you meant the base umpire says "Yes!"
2) I don't understand your reference to 10.c.3. There is no such casebook reference

Now, 10-2-3m might be what you're referring to. This is a reversed decision that clearly put the offense at a disadvantage. I believe this is a good situation to use 10-2-3m and give the BR 1st if at all possible. (i.e.: the ball went all the way to the backstop and it took F2 some time to retrieve the ball.)

My preferred mechanic on this sort of play is to immediately (even before I'm asked) go to the BU on a potential D3K situation where the ball gets away from the catcher. This way, neither the offense and the defense are disadvantaged.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

A couple of things here that might need some clarification:
1) I'm assuming you meant the base umpire says "Yes!"
2) I don't understand your reference to 10.c.3. There is no such casebook reference

Now, 10-2-3m might be what you're referring to. This is a reversed decision that clearly put the offense at a disadvantage. I believe this is a good situation to use 10-2-3m and give the BR 1st if at all possible. (i.e.: the ball went all the way to the backstop and it took F2 some time to retrieve the ball.)

My preferred mechanic on this sort of play is to immediately (even before I'm asked) go to the BU on a potential D3K situation where the ball gets away from the catcher. This way, neither the offense and the defense are disadvantaged.

Agreed with the outcome. In fact, this is almost the exact same case play in the NFHS case book under 10.2.3.G.

But I do have a question regarding your preferred mechanic. Is that an approved mechanic for all softball orgs? I know that going to a partner without the defense asking is taught in baseball.

Another baseball mechanic (mentioned in the MLB Umpire Manual) is for the base umpire to go ahead and call that an batter offered at the pitch, even if the plate umpire doesn't go to him. I've never heard that taught in softball clinics.

[EsqUmp]

Since it is not an appeal, the plate umpire can and should go immediately.

The batter put herself in jeopardy by not checking her swing. I'm not overly sympathetic if she gets tagged out. Then again, I wouldn't have helped create this type of situation in the first place.

There is no approved mechanic for the base umpire chiming in early on a check swing. If the batter thinks that it is a dropped third strike and she takes off, I have no issue with the base umpiring becoming more demonstrative and calling the batter out. But, that doesn't apply on a checked swing.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Is that an approved mechanic for all softball orgs?

I'll be honest. I don't know if it is, or not. I'm a baseball guy, as well and I acknowledge I'm borrowing this from baseball.

What makes sense to me is not allow the defense to get a "cheap out" by tracking down the ball, having the catcher return to the plate near the batter, then ask for an appeal so she can make the easy tag out if it turns out to be a DK3.

While we have the right to rectify a situation where an overturned call puts a team at a distinct disadvantage, that doesn't mean you're not going to wind up with a very ugly situation if you have to start placing runners on a late check with your partner. Why not avoid it and have this situation played under a more organic circumstance by asking for help right away?

The only other "fair" thing to do here might be to disallow the "appeal". However, some codes do not allow you to not go for help.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

I'll be honest. I don't know if it is, or not. I'm a baseball guy, as well and I acknowledge I'm borrowing this from baseball.

What makes sense to me is not allow the defense to get a "cheap out" by tracking down the ball, having the catcher return to the plate near the batter, then ask for an appeal so she can make the easy tag out if it turns out to be a DK3.

While we have the right to rectify a situation where an overturned call puts a team at a distinct disadvantage, that doesn't mean you're not going to wind up with a very ugly situation if you have to start placing runners on a late check with your partner. Why not avoid it and have this situation played under a more organic circumstance by asking for help right away?

The only other "fair" thing to do here might be to disallow the "appeal". However, some codes do not allow you to not go for help.

Who says it is a cheap out? Did the defense not offer the batter the opportunity to put the ball in play? In some circumstances, does the batter not attempt and fail to put the ball into play?

While people want to hold the defense accountable here, it is the batter who placed herself in jeopardy, no one else. If there is anything cheap here, it would be awarding a runner to a team that did nothing to deserve such an award.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Who says it is a cheap out? Did the defense not offer the batter the opportunity to put the ball in play? In some circumstances, does the batter not attempt and fail to put the ball into play?

While people want to hold the defense accountable here, it is the batter who placed herself in jeopardy, no one else. If there is anything cheap here, it would be awarding a runner to a team that did nothing to deserve such an award.

True for the most part. However... on a play where the ball got seriously away from the catcher, and it's obvious the batter runner would have achieved first had the appealled swing happened immediately (or a play where the swing was more obvious and the PU called it), then we have to put that batter runner on base.

I agree that the "norm" here, or the default, should simply be an out.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

While people want to hold the defense accountable here, it is the batter who placed herself in jeopardy, no one else.

The defense is not without some blame here, as well. After all, the catcher failed to catch the pitch.