Projected Sub...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

No. I would reach into my ball bag, pull out my lineup card, notice that he/she is trying to give me a projected substitute, and tell him/her, "Sorry, coach, but you can't give me a sub until the time she actually enters the game," and then put my lineup card back in my bag.

Here's the dilemma. Let's say you accept the substitution, and enter #25 in #30's batting position. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double, and the coach doesn't have anybody on the bench to bring in for #15.

So the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I need to put #25 in to run for #15." But you have already accepted #25 as a substitute for #30. What do you do then?

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Rich

There are other ways a coach can manipulate things with projected substitutes. That said, I'll write down the change and remind the coach that the player isn't in the game until they report to me at the plate (or the coach reports it to me at that time).

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not me. I won't write it down because chances are the coach will forget to let me know when the player actually enters, the player doesn't say anything either, and then I'll forget to inform the opposing coach when the player comes in. And then the opposing coach will argue for a batting out of order and/or an unreported sub violation.

I'd rather keep it clean. I've never had a problem with a coach that I've told, "I can't take that substitution now. Come back when she actually enters."

You are certainly within your rights to do that. I'm just telling you what I'd do (in a baseball game -- that's all I work). I remember the position and will pull the card out and report it when the player comes to the plate. Just saves a little time -- but I can get why others wouldn't want to do it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rich

you are certainly within your rights to do that. I'm just telling you what i'd do (in a baseball game -- that's all i work). I remember the position and will pull the card out and report it when the player comes to the plate. Just saves a little time -- but i can get why others wouldn't want to do it.

+1

[KJUmp]

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

It's not only a lineup card management disaster, it's a case where an umpire puts a coach at a disadvantage by doing something against the rules.

Take my scenario that I mentioned before. Once again, the coach wants to enter #25 in #30's batting position (fifth batter in the inning), and you put that on the card. But two batters later, #15 severly twists her ankle sliding into second base on a double.

So the coach comes out and says, "Remember that I wanted to enter #25 in for #30, Blue? Let's forget that since #30's batting order slot hasn't come up yet, and I'll put #25 in for #15 at second base." You cannot use the substitution rules and tell the coach, "Sorry, but #25 officially subbed for #30, so she can't re-enter for anyone else." Why not? Because you weren't supposed to accept the change in the first place. You're using a rule you violated to put the coach into a bind.

I think the time you save accepting projected subs (which isn't that much time if you know how to keep a lineup card and announce subs) isn't worth the headache you could get into. But that's just me. YMMV

[RKBUmp]

I have always been taught projected means dealing with more than one action on the same substitute. As Andy referred to, coach wants to sub 30 for 15 at bat, but tells you he also wants 15 reentered on defense.

Has ASA ever issued a clarification of what they consider as being projected? Did a search through the NCAA book and they dont refer to them as projected substutions, the only reference they make is to "projected re-entries".

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I guess I must be a little slow, or what am I missing here? I don't see the OP as a projected sub. As I read 3-3-3 the player is in the game as soon as the plate umpire records it on the lineup card and then they are required to report it to the other team. Now if there is no announcement (coach or player does not tell me) then they are in the game once one of a-e happens. Points a-e tells us when we can enforce the unreported sub rules, it is not a requirement for them to be in the game if they were reported. A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

ART. 3 . . . The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card
and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected
substitutions are not permitted. Should there be no announcement of substitutions,
a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner she has replaced.
b. a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate.
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder she has
replaced.
d. a batter takes her place in the batter's box.
e. and, in each of the above situations, when the ball is declared live by the
plate umpire.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

I agree with this completely. On defense, the sub happens immediately - they go to their position and the person they are replacing leaves. On offense, anyone but the batter who is about to enter the box is not really substituted for until that slot comes up to bat.

Everything else is a future substitution... a projected sub.

[RKBUmp]

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

Apples and oranges. More like apples and kumquats, actually.

What you wouldn't allow is the coach to come up and say, "I'm going to bat #25 for the number 3 hitter" before the game started.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection?

Perhaps. But then, there's nothing against the rules concerning projected starters.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution?

Nope. All changes to the starting lineup once it becomes official is considered a substitution. But by the strict wording in the rules, the plate umpire shouldn't be accepting visiting team changes to the starting lineup until the substitute actually comes to bat for the starter.

That said, do we go ahead and accept them at the plate conference? Yeah, sure, since everybody's there making the changes to their respective cards. But again, unless that substitute happens to be the leadoff batter of the game, the change shouldn't be accepted.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

But we do don't we? If a coach is using the DP/Flex we will allow the Flex to bat for the DP to be reported at the plate conference correct?? There was some clarification on this matter last year I believe. So if we do this how is that any different???

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

The fundamental theory is not to accept future movement of the players (projected substitution) if I say that #10 who is in the bullpen will pitch to the 3rd batter that is a future movement of the players!

Telling me to enter sub #30 for layer #11 and sub #25 for player #33 at the beginning of an inning whether offensive or defensive is a current action and not projected.

Now if I give you #30 for #11 and the state that if #30 gets on #12 will run for her that will not work. I will say #30 is in the game for #11 and let me know when you enter #12 in the game.