Projected Sub...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

And if I'm the PU, the only way that happens is when the coach gives me the change(s), I confirm the change with him, record it on my lineup card, inform the official scorer and the opposing team.

"I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning"...
"Ok Coach, I'll take the change from you when your ready to send her up to hit."
Ditto for a defensive change(s).
And then the coach and I will do the change.


I've got too many other things on my mind to

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

And if I'm the PU, the only way that happens is when the coach gives me the change(s), I confirm the change with him, record it on my lineup card, inform the official scorer and the opposing team.

"I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning"...
"Ok Coach, I'll take the change from you when your ready to send her up to hit."
Ditto for a defensive change(s).
And then the coach and I will do the change.


I've got too many other things on my mind to

I've got too many other things on my mind than to care when she's due up. Coach gives me subs, I record and announce.

[PATRICK]

I just found this. I know OP isn't NCAA, but here's their rule.

8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead.

8.5.1.2 A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

I just found this. I know OP isn't NCAA, but here's their rule.

8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead.

8.5.1.2 A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

As this issue has also been discussed in the thread, I'll add it to your two cites:
8.5.1.8 Substitutes shall be considered officially in the game when the substitution is reported to and accepted by the plate umpire, recorded on the official lineup card and announced to the opposing coach, scorekeepers, the official scorer and the public-address announcer.

Ties up all the loose ends.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Maybe it is me, but three pages on this subject is a little disturbing.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yeah, I'm having the same thought.

People, a coach can make a substitution, and multiple substitutions, at any time on both defense and offense. When the change is accepted (and fully processed, recorded, and announced), the substitution has happened. If the coach chooses to replace all 9 players on offense at one time, you accept 9 substitutions. Now. They are entered now. If the coach wants to change that later, that is a re-entry, or another substitution. Then; and he has to live with the substitutions previously made. The player being replaced is replaced when reported and recorded, and it has NOTHING to do with which player is at bat.

Projected in ASA, NFHS, and NCAA means 25 for 30, and I will re-enter 30 on defense at the end of the inning. You accept 25 for 30, and you tell the coach he must re-enter 30 when 30 is being re-entered, not now. If coach tells you 25 for 30, 18 for 23, and 5 for 12, you make three substitutions; now. You do not have the right to refuse to allow a coach to make a legal substitution now, even if the coach may later regret it. That part is his problem.

Whomever told you accepting multiple substitutions on offense is projeected, that you can only accept changes on the current batter, is completely wrong. The NCAA rule saying "8.5.1.1. Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead." NFHS 3-3-2 also states "A substitute may replace any player when the ball is dead or time has been called." ASA RS#51 adds "A substitute is considered in the game when reported to the plate umpire"; only unreported subs need to actually participate to be considered officially in the game.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe it is me, but three pages on this subject is a little disturbing.

Well ... it was 3 pages the last time you and AtlSteve argued about this (2010).

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

Are you saying that if OC tells you 23 for 24 and 25 for 26 and 24 bats but 26 doesn't, then 26 goes out on defense that you will say she's unreported?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

Are you saying that if OC tells you 23 for 24 and 25 for 26 and 24 bats but 26 doesn't, then 26 goes out on defense that you will say she's unreported?

If all this happens when I'm umpiring, then I'm only taking the sub when it happens, and I'm telling him so. I am not taking 25 for 26 at that moment - and coach will know that.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If all this happens when I'm umpiring, then I'm only taking the sub when it happens, and I'm telling him so. I am not taking 25 for 26 at that moment - and coach will know that.

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

No it doesn't.

You take a sub when it happens. If the try to project, you tell them to come back with it when they want it to occur.

It is real simple. If you give me a change, I stop and make that change immediately. I don't wave or smile or nod, I stop the game, take my line-up card and make the change then and there. No multiple scenarios, what ifs or conditions. If you tell me 15 for 44, that change is effective the moment I write it down.

Why? Because if there is any reason for the game to stop at that point or I, as the plate umpire, cannot continue, that line-up card IS the official line up for both teams. There is no, "but I told him....." or "that isn't what I really wanted to do.." bull****. A UIC should be able to come to the field at any time during the game, take your line-up card and compare them to the scorebook and they should be identical.

That will not happen if the umpire's line-up card is not current and it cannot be current if the umpire accepts changes that have no yet taken place. Want to not see Sunday in a NC, do not have a current line-up card when there is a BOO protest.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No it doesn't.

.

I'm confused, will re-read later.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

That goes against everything Mike and Steve just posted.

Yes, it does. MD disagrees with Mike and Steve. His position is that you cannot make a substitution for a player unless that player is going to play in the game at that moment. I couldn't quite explain to you why he thinks it's this way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Yes, it does. MD disagrees with Mike and Steve. His position is that you cannot make a substitution for a player unless that player is going to play in the game at that moment. I couldn't quite explain to you why he thinks it's this way.

As I stated three years ago, you maintain the line-up and only the line-up. You don't worry about anything other than being a body in a slot in the batting order.

Do not construe that to mean that I believe the other rules (DP/Flex, re-entry, etc.) do not apply. They do, but for the purpose of making a change, when you get it, you write it down and it is effective. You do not worry about WHEN or WHERE they are going into the field or bat, they are in the game when you take the change.