Projected Sub...

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I guess I must be a little slow, or what am I missing here? I don't see the OP as a projected sub. As I read 3-3-3 the player is in the game as soon as the plate umpire records it on the lineup card and then they are required to report it to the other team. Now if there is no announcement (coach or player does not tell me) then they are in the game once one of a-e happens. Points a-e tells us when we can enforce the unreported sub rules, it is not a requirement for them to be in the game if they were reported. A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

ART. 3 . . . The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card
and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected
substitutions are not permitted. Should there be no announcement of substitutions,
a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner she has replaced.
b. a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate.
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder she has
replaced.
d. a batter takes her place in the batter's box.
e. and, in each of the above situations, when the ball is declared live by the
plate umpire.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

If the coach comes up and says I want to sub #25 for #30, would you not reach in your ball bag, pull out your line up card, and make the substitution ?

If they are in the field... yes. If they are batting, absolutely not - unless 30 is coming up to bat.

That said ... if the sitch is like the OP, I will notice she's 5th when he tells me. I won't notate it right then, but when the 5th batter comes up and it's 30 (and not 25), I'm not going to make him come back out and tell me again. It is at THIS point that I would inform the other team's coach (and usually the scorekeeper too).

If it turns out they only bat 3 or 4 that inning - I'll inform the coach that the substitution has actually not taken place yet and ask if he still wants it when they go on defense.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

I will not accept the "25 is batting for 30, then 30 will re-enter on defense" sub.

I agree. Me neither.

I will however, accept the coach that comes out at the beginning of the inning and tells me that "13 will bat for 17, 5 will bat for 7, and 14 will bat for 16."

Do what you must, and I agree with moving the game along - but if 17, 7, or 16's batting slot don't come up in that inning, the substitution DID NOT happen. Your instruction to the coach that these subs are official and if anything varies you'll use reentry rules is just wrong. In fact, until those players batting slots come up and the new player is getting ready to bat, coach could still (completely legally) change his mind and NOT make that substitution - with no penalty.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Aside from the fact that many of the rule sets we play under prohibit projected subs, give me one good reason to even get involved in accepting projected subs?
It's a lineup card management disaster waiting to happen.

It's only a disaster if you actually write it in.

Consider the much cleaner scenario - Able and Baker due up 1 and 2 in the next inning. Coach is passing you going from his coaching box to his dugout between innings and says, "I'll have Smith batting for Baker this inning." It's efficient to let that happen (assuming you don't actually write it in or tell the opponent or scorekeeper until it really happens that way). Manny's way works fine as well. Not accepting the sub is fine. But I see no harm in accepting his words between innings when they do match his actions 1-2 batters later.

Just don't make it official until it is, in fact, official.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rich

you are certainly within your rights to do that. I'm just telling you what i'd do (in a baseball game -- that's all i work). I remember the position and will pull the card out and report it when the player comes to the plate. Just saves a little time -- but i can get why others wouldn't want to do it.

+1

[RKBUmp]

I have always been taught projected means dealing with more than one action on the same substitute. As Andy referred to, coach wants to sub 30 for 15 at bat, but tells you he also wants 15 reentered on defense.

Has ASA ever issued a clarification of what they consider as being projected? Did a search through the NCAA book and they dont refer to them as projected substutions, the only reference they make is to "projected re-entries".

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

I agree with this completely. On defense, the sub happens immediately - they go to their position and the person they are replacing leaves. On offense, anyone but the batter who is about to enter the box is not really substituted for until that slot comes up to bat.

Everything else is a future substitution... a projected sub.

[RKBUmp]

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

Apples and oranges. More like apples and kumquats, actually.

What you wouldn't allow is the coach to come up and say, "I'm going to bat #25 for the number 3 hitter" before the game started.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I was dinged in a HS evaluation a couple of years ago for accepting a projected sub. She was due to bat second that inning, and ultimately did.

After the game I was told of my mistake. That was also the game that I learned to take the home team's lineup first. I had been taking visitors first - figured they batted first so I'd take their lineup first. Wrong.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection?

Perhaps. But then, there's nothing against the rules concerning projected starters.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution?

Nope. All changes to the starting lineup once it becomes official is considered a substitution. But by the strict wording in the rules, the plate umpire shouldn't be accepting visiting team changes to the starting lineup until the substitute actually comes to bat for the starter.

That said, do we go ahead and accept them at the plate conference? Yeah, sure, since everybody's there making the changes to their respective cards. But again, unless that substitute happens to be the leadoff batter of the game, the change shouldn't be accepted.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

But we do don't we? If a coach is using the DP/Flex we will allow the Flex to bat for the DP to be reported at the plate conference correct?? There was some clarification on this matter last year I believe. So if we do this how is that any different???

[DaveASA/FED]

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

But look at 4-6-A, Dave. I don't have a recent version of the rulebook here at work. I have an electronic version of the 2008 book. And in 4-6-A, it says [my emphasis in bold]:

"The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer."

So while it doesn't specifically say projected substitutes are not allowed, it does say when the manager or team rep should tell the plate ump. I'm assuming the latest rule has not changed in its intent.

To answer your previous question about DP/Flex, I don't know what was put out under some previous clarification. But to me, if the coach announces at the plate conference that his Flex is going to bat for his DP, the umpire shouldn't take that announcement, by rule, until the DP is due to bat.