Projected Sub...

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok I guess I must be a little slow, or what am I missing here? I don't see the OP as a projected sub. As I read 3-3-3 the player is in the game as soon as the plate umpire records it on the lineup card and then they are required to report it to the other team. Now if there is no announcement (coach or player does not tell me) then they are in the game once one of a-e happens. Points a-e tells us when we can enforce the unreported sub rules, it is not a requirement for them to be in the game if they were reported. A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

ART. 3 . . . The plate umpire shall record all substitutions on the lineup card
and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected
substitutions are not permitted. Should there be no announcement of substitutions,
a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner she has replaced.
b. a pitcher takes her place on the pitcher's plate.
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder she has
replaced.
d. a batter takes her place in the batter's box.
e. and, in each of the above situations, when the ball is declared live by the
plate umpire.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

A projected sub is just that something that the plate umpire has to record later. I can't record that 25 is going back to play defense AFTER 30 bats....that is a projected sub can't take that. But I can take all the lineup changing at once and they are in the game once I record that.

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

I agree with this completely. On defense, the sub happens immediately - they go to their position and the person they are replacing leaves. On offense, anyone but the batter who is about to enter the box is not really substituted for until that slot comes up to bat.

Everything else is a future substitution... a projected sub.

[RKBUmp]

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

Apples and oranges. More like apples and kumquats, actually.

What you wouldn't allow is the coach to come up and say, "I'm going to bat #25 for the number 3 hitter" before the game started.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I was dinged in a HS evaluation a couple of years ago for accepting a projected sub. She was due to bat second that inning, and ultimately did.

After the game I was told of my mistake. That was also the game that I learned to take the home team's lineup first. I had been taking visitors first - figured they batted first so I'd take their lineup first. Wrong.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection?

Perhaps. But then, there's nothing against the rules concerning projected starters.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution?

Nope. All changes to the starting lineup once it becomes official is considered a substitution. But by the strict wording in the rules, the plate umpire shouldn't be accepting visiting team changes to the starting lineup until the substitute actually comes to bat for the starter.

That said, do we go ahead and accept them at the plate conference? Yeah, sure, since everybody's there making the changes to their respective cards. But again, unless that substitute happens to be the leadoff batter of the game, the change shouldn't be accepted.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Isnt then the entire visiting teams lineup in the top of the 1st inning nothing but a projection? If after accepting that lineup card as official, do we allow any changes without it being considered a substitution? None of those batters have yet to step into the batters box.

But we do don't we? If a coach is using the DP/Flex we will allow the Flex to bat for the DP to be reported at the plate conference correct?? There was some clarification on this matter last year I believe. So if we do this how is that any different???

[DaveASA/FED]

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

But look at 4-6-A, Dave. I don't have a recent version of the rulebook here at work. I have an electronic version of the 2008 book. And in 4-6-A, it says [my emphasis in bold]:

"The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer."

So while it doesn't specifically say projected substitutes are not allowed, it does say when the manager or team rep should tell the plate ump. I'm assuming the latest rule has not changed in its intent.

To answer your previous question about DP/Flex, I don't know what was put out under some previous clarification. But to me, if the coach announces at the plate conference that his Flex is going to bat for his DP, the umpire shouldn't take that announcement, by rule, until the DP is due to bat.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what exactly constitutes a "projected substitute."

To me, any sub who isn't immediately in the game when the coach gives me the lineup change is a projected sub. If the coach tells me he's entering #25 to be the fifth batter of the inning, he's giving me what amounts to a future change.

Would you accept this defensive change between innings: "Hey Blue, #10 who is in my bullpen right now is going to come in and pitch to the third batter this inning." If you accept future batting order changes in the same half-inning, then why wouldn't you accept future defensive changes in the same half-inning?

The fundamental theory is not to accept future movement of the players (projected substitution) if I say that #10 who is in the bullpen will pitch to the 3rd batter that is a future movement of the players!

Telling me to enter sub #30 for layer #11 and sub #25 for player #33 at the beginning of an inning whether offensive or defensive is a current action and not projected.

Now if I give you #30 for #11 and the state that if #30 gets on #12 will run for her that will not work. I will say #30 is in the game for #11 and let me know when you enter #12 in the game.