Timing Play

[MD Longhorn]

What do you differently, as an umpire, on a timing play?

Here's why I ask... working with a new to me, very solid partner over the weekend (he works higher level ball than me and is well respected and liked by all)... R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, 2 outs. We give each other the timing play signal. Single to center. Both runners taking the extra base and the throw goes to third. I'm plate, and I line up home with 3rd so I can see both. Slide at 3rd takes the play to the outfield side of the bag - throw is in time but I can't see the actual timing of the tag, and it's VERY close to when my runner touches home.

As BU, do you do ANYthing to help your partner out on the timing of the tag? As it turned out, partner gives a long pause and then a very slow, protracted, big sell out. I have NO CLUE whether the tag happened first or not. Forced to guess, and being maybe 60-70% sure based on what I do know, I score the run.

Luckily, no one erupts, no coach questions, and the game ended up where that 1 run was not the difference. Given the mechanics of this tourney, I didn't have a chance for a post game with this partner, so I never got to discuss it with him.

And as a side question ... is 60-70% sure enough for you to score the run here? Do you have to be 100% sure of the score? Do you have to be 100% sure the other way to rule no run? In retrospect, I wish I'd went out to confer with him between innings.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

What do you differently, as an umpire, on a timing play?

Here's why I ask... working with a new to me, very solid partner over the weekend (he works higher level ball than me and is well respected and liked by all)... R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, 2 outs. We give each other the timing play signal. Single to center. Both runners taking the extra base and the throw goes to third. I'm plate, and I line up home with 3rd so I can see both. Slide at 3rd takes the play to the outfield side of the bag - throw is in time but I can't see the actual timing of the tag, and it's VERY close to when my runner touches home.

As BU, do you do ANYthing to help your partner out on the timing of the tag? As it turned out, partner gives a long pause and then a very slow, protracted, big sell out. I have NO CLUE whether the tag happened first or not. Forced to guess, and being maybe 60-70% sure based on what I do know, I score the run.

Luckily, no one erupts, no coach questions, and the game ended up where that 1 run was not the difference. Given the mechanics of this tourney, I didn't have a chance for a post game with this partner, so I never got to discuss it with him.

And as a side question ... is 60-70% sure enough for you to score the run here? Do you have to be 100% sure of the score? Do you have to be 100% sure the other way to rule no run? In retrospect, I wish I'd went out to confer with him between innings.

The BU has the intermediate runner at 3rd base when there is a potential play at the plate. If you watch ASA's new DVD its there. It's not covered well and is almost skated over but its there.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

The BU has the intermediate runner at 3rd base when there is a potential play at the plate. If you watch ASA's new DVD its there. It's not covered well and is almost skated over but its there.

He did have that runner. That's not the issue. He did not help give PU any clues as to the moment that out at 3rd occurred, making it difficult for PU to know if the runner at home scored before that out. Given that the partners reminded each other there was a possible timing play, nothing occurred to help make the right call on the timing.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

The BU has the intermediate runner at 3rd base when there is a potential play at the plate. If you watch ASA's new DVD its there. It's not covered well and is almost skated over but its there.

That really doesn't answer Mike's question. He didn't ask who should have taken the play at third base.

For me, I go with what I can see from my position at home plate, and assume that the tag was made when it likely would have been made. Sometimes, waiting on your partner's signal is not a good idea because he/she could expand his/her timing aspect of the play (as Mike's partner did here).

As the umpire making the call that affects the timing of when a run scores, I don't do anything different. I don't point as soon as I see the tag, because the ball could come out of the fielder's glove right after I point, and my partner could be fooled by my signal. But I also don't wait and wait and then sell the out as Mike's partner did.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I also don't do anything differently as the base ump, other than attempt to have some idea if the out occurred before the run scored, to assist if asked. You can't, as noted above, make the call before being sure the out is made; but you do know if you ruled on a clean initial tag, or a slide-by with a late tag.

As plate umpire, go with what you believe to be true, based on what you know. Other than a multi-angle replay like MLB TV, no one is even paying as much attention as you, they are all watching the play and the call at third base, anyway; and the we aren't talking about you blowing the obvious ones. Go with your call, and if asked by the opposing coach, do get together with the BU to be sure you didn't disallow a run based on an initial tag that wasn't the actual out.

[RadioBlue]

I agree with Steve here. We have to work as a team on this play.

To answer your other question, Mike, I'd have to say I gotta know the runner definitely did not touch prior to the tag before I'm denying the run. But, perhaps that's just me.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That really doesn't answer Mike's question. He didn't ask who should have taken the play at third base.

For me, I go with what I can see from my position at home plate, and assume that the tag was made when it likely would have been made. Sometimes, waiting on your partner's signal is not a good idea because he/she could expand his/her timing aspect of the play (as Mike's partner did here).

As the umpire making the call that affects the timing of when a run scores, I don't do anything different. I don't point as soon as I see the tag, because the ball could come out of the fielder's glove right after I point, and my partner could be fooled by my signal. But I also don't wait and wait and then sell the out as Mike's partner did.

You're looking at the use of the point signal the wrong way.

Not speaking for Mike, but.....

If I were his BU on the play, my point signal would tell him (and both teams) that at that juncture I have a tag, I have not signaled an OUT yet. I'm going to use my regular timing to locate the ball, make sure its controlled (if necessary, I'll say "show me the ball") followed by an out or safe signal. If it's an out signal, Mike would then make the determination if the run scored before the tag was made on the runner. It's a two signal mechanic, but requires two distinct signals.

Keep in mind, the timing play signal we give each other means both the PU & BU have responsibilities on the play.

As BU, mine is to make sure my PU clearly knows when I have the tag on the runner, as that's when the out was recorded, not when I gave my Out signal. The timing on my part of the play at 3rd needs to be precise, to help his timing on his part of the play at HP.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

... We give each other the timing play signal...

I can't seem to find this signal in ASA or NFHS....

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SRW

I can't seem to find this signal in ASA or NFHS....

Of course, there is no such signal in the books, but used a lot.

Generally I agree with Manny, Steve, et al.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

As BU, do you do ANYthing to help your partner out on the timing of the tag? As it turned out, partner gives a long pause and then a very slow, protracted, big sell out. I have NO CLUE whether the tag happened first or not. Forced to guess, and being maybe 60-70% sure based on what I do know, I score the run.

As the BU, if you see a point, and in this case you will almost always see a point from me, that will be an indicator that there has been a tag.

And as a side question ... is 60-70% sure enough for you to score the run here? Do you have to be 100% sure of the score? Do you have to be 100% sure the other way to rule no run? In retrospect, I wish I'd went out to confer with him between innings.

Why, what was he going to tell you that could have changed your call? The only thing I could see would be a delayed tag where the runner's path around the base cause the fielder to miss the initial tag or reposition. Whatever you do, don't wait for your partner's signal to check or mark the runner's location.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Of course, there is no such signal in the books, but used a lot.

The only response you will get from me is wiping off the IF signal you just gave

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The only response you will get from me is wiping off the IF signal you just gave

Hopefully, you won't respond at all to a signal I don't give.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

You're looking at the use of the point signal the wrong way.

Other than when putting the ball in play, or when going to your partner for help on a checked swing, I didn't know a point signal was an appropriate mechanic to begin with.

The reason I don't like to point is because I may point prematurely (poor timing), seeing what I thought was a tag, only to subsequently see the fielder lose possession of the ball. If I point, the fielder loses possession, then she regains possession and can still make the tag for an out, my point will be for naught when it comes to the timing of the run scoring.

And since I don't point when it comes to other tag plays, I don't want to get into a possible bad habit of doing so.

[MD Longhorn]

Ok, so I'm curious. There's a mechanic you don't use that would help your partner 95% of the time, and give incorrect information 5%... or you could go with no mechanic and leave him in the dark 100% of the time.

See where I'm going?

[HugoTafurst]

Oh, you mean the 2 out signal?