Timing play or not?

[Illini_Ref]

Is this a timing play or is the check swing appeal considered the THIRD out? I guess my question is this. Is the outs considered to be made in the order they are called? For some reason a check-swing appeal seems like it is a different animal than a "normal" appeal say for a missed base.

- Runners at first and second, one out. 2-2 count
- Runners are going on a double steal
- Batter check-swings
- Catcher throws to second wildly
- Runner on second scores THEN runner from first is thrown out at third
- Defense appeals the check swing and BU rules a swing
- Does the run score?
- If it is a timing play then YES it does. If the appeal is the THIRD out then NO it doesn't

[BK47]

My take on this would be the run would count either way.

My reasoning: You have one out already, considering the check swing would be out number two, base runners do a double steal, throw to second goes wild, R1 touchs home before R2 is tagged out at third for out number three. Run counts.

~OR~ You have one out already, considering check swing not an out yet, base runners do a double steal, throw to second goes wild, R1 touchs home before R2 is tagged out at third for out number two and the check swing is appealed for out number three. Run counts.

In both cases neither R1 or R2 were forced to advance on the play so count the run as it was not a force play.

Now had R2 been tagged out Before R1 touchs home, then I would not have a run in either senerio.

Does this make sense to you guys? Am I correct in my reasoning?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BK47

~OR~ You have one out already, considering check swing not an out yet, base runners do a double steal, throw to second goes wild, R1 touchs home before R2 is tagged out at third for out number two and the check swing is appealed for out number three. Run counts.

Under this scenario, the third out is made by the batter before he reaches first, so no run can score.

[BK47]

Thanks Bob, I got to thinking about that and came up with the same thing, but thanks for letting me know.

[Illini_Ref]

I just need to know WHICH out does the swing appeal count as, the second (which is when the K happened) or the third (when it was called). If it is considered the second out, then we have a timing play. If it is the third then we don't have a timing play and no runs can score regardless.

It just seems that this appeal is different from a "normal" appeal of say a missed base. In a check-swing appeal the non-primary umpire is changing the call of the covering umpire, in essence. In a normal appeal the calling umpire is simply holding his call until asked for it.

[greymule]

I don't understand. If the strike is called immediately on the swing, the strikeout is the second out and the run scores since the third out was a time play. But if the strike is called on appeal, the strikeout becomes the third out and the run doesn't score.

Is this "second out becomes the third out" principle covered in one of the usual reference books (J/R, BRD)? I can't find it.

[greymule]

It just seems that this appeal is different from a "normal" appeal of say a missed base.

My thinking also. R2, R1, one out. Batter hits a double but misses 1B. R2 and R1 score, but R1 missed 3B. Regardless of who missed a base first, if the defense appeals R1's miss of 3B and then the BR's miss of 1B, the run is nullified. But if they appeal in reverse order, the run counts. But that's because on a missed base, you're not out until you're called out on appeal. With a strikeout, I would say you're out when you struck out, not after the umpires talk it over and decide you struck out.

But that's just my own logic, which isn't always the same as the rulesmakers'.

[tjones1]

I would say the strikeout is the 2nd out and the play at 3B is the 3rd; thus, the run scores.

I'll be calling you I_R on my way home.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Is this a timing play or is the check swing appeal considered the THIRD out? I guess my question is this. Is the outs considered to be made in the order they are called? For some reason a check-swing appeal seems like it is a different animal than a "normal" appeal say for a missed base.

- Runners at first and second, one out. 2-2 count
- Runners are going on a double steal
- Batter check-swings
- Catcher throws to second wildly
- Runner on second scores THEN runner from first is thrown out at third
- Defense appeals the check swing and BU rules a swing
- Does the run score?
- If it is a timing play then YES it does. If the appeal is the THIRD out then NO it doesn't

The appeal on the check swing is the 2nd out and R1 thrown out at 3rd is the 3rd out. Score the run.

Also, the PU should not wait for an appeal with an "anything & 2" count. He should immediately go for the appeal. The advanced mechanic would be the BU would cocme up with the appeal without a request from the PU.

[johnnyg08]

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

In Ozzy's post,

I believe it's called the "Voluntary Strike" mechanic. Which can be found in the MLBUM

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

The appeal on the check swing is the 2nd out and R1 thrown out at 3rd is the 3rd out. Score the run.

Also, the PU should not wait for an appeal with an "anything & 2" count. He should immediately go for the appeal. The advanced mechanic would be the BU would cocme up with the appeal without a request from the PU.

I thought this was the mechanic if the BR could possibly advance.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I thought this was the mechanic if the BR could possibly advance.

Unfortunately, not all associations work as per the MLBUM. Some still operate where the BU is silent until the PU makes the appeal.

[Illini_Ref]

I think that Tjones is saying that the MLBUM is not appropriate here since the BR cannot advance by rule since first base is occupied.

Also, with runners stealing and plays being made on them an immediate appeal really isn't possible. In the OC the appeal would come after playing action. The question remains, is it the second or third out? Common sense says that it would be the second, but this is rules, common sense may not apply.

I would be interested in knowing if there is a rule, case, or manual reference for this in any rule set.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Under this scenario, the third out is made by the batter before he reaches first, so no run can score.

If you're invoking 4.09, that rule refers to a batter-runner and not to a batter.

[MD Longhorn]

celebur is correct... however, another scenario illustrates where this sort of "appeal" is not applicable - it's not really an appeal as much as it is asking partner for help on a call.

R2, R3, 1 out. R2 and R3 stealing, Batter bunts. F1 fields and throws badly to first. BU is straightlined on a swipe tag, and rules safe. F3 fires home getting R2 trying to score as well... 2 outs. Coach then asks time to "appeal" asking BU to see if PU saw the swipe tag. PU did. BU rules BR out for the "third" out.

But since the out truly occurred at the time of the tag, and was only ANNOUNCED after the other out, the BR was really the 2nd out - the run scores.

Similar logic applies to the OP. If BU rules a swing, the out ACTUALLY occurred way back when he swung, even though the announcement of that out was much later. BU is 2nd out in the OP. Run counts.