The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 13, 2012, 02:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 123
Lets take this a step farther and say you are using official scorekeepers...
1. The coach brings you a change and it is illegal and you know it, do you report it to the official score who now in turn tells you it is illegal, what do you do?

Under above logic I take it you would tell her to be quiet.
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 13, 2012, 06:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
I'm applying the same logic to an unreported sub or illegal substitution. Just because it is illegal doesn't mean we prevent it. We allow it knowing that they are violating the rule and rule accordingly when called upon to do so.
I disagree to a point. If you know a substitution is illegal, you do not take it. You do not allow something knowing they are violating a rule. What you don't do is initiate the action after the fact.

In the OP, if there was an indication from a player or coach that something was askew, I will look into it. An example is something I had a few years ago. A player came to the plate that I didn't recall seeing bat before, but that is not unusual as I don't sit there and try to memorize the batting order. As the pitcher approached the PP, the catcher stood up and hollered, "new batter".

I backed out from behind the plate and asked the batter if he just entered the game and recorded the proper substitution. The defense openly stated they were aware of a substitution and the batter had yet to put the ball into play or be retired.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 06:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Suwanee Georgia
Posts: 1,050
So why be different

Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I disagree to a point. If you know a substitution is illegal, you do not take it. You do not allow something knowing they are violating a rule. What you don't do is initiate the action after the fact.

In the OP, if there was an indication from a player or coach that something was askew, I will look into it. An example is something I had a few years ago. A player came to the plate that I didn't recall seeing bat before, but that is not unusual as I don't sit there and try to memorize the batting order. As the pitcher approached the PP, the catcher stood up and hollered, "new batter".

I backed out from behind the plate and asked the batter if he just entered the game and recorded the proper substitution. The defense openly stated they were aware of a substitution and the batter had yet to put the ball into play or be retired.
Why do we not prevent anything that is illegal by rule? Why not prevent, not physically but verbally (i.e. "No, number 24, you can't return to 1b"), a runner returning to a base that by rule she may not return to? Both are illegal by rule.
__________________
Gwinnett Umpires Association
Multicounty Softball Association
Multicounty Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 08:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
Why do we not prevent anything that is illegal by rule? Why not prevent, not physically but verbally (i.e. "No, number 24, you can't return to 1b"), a runner returning to a base that by rule she may not return to? Both are illegal by rule.
Are you serious? As I tried (unsuccessfully) to say above, I see a huge difference, as in not even remotely in the same conversation, a so-called "illegal" action by a player during playing action that merely places the player in jeopardy of being put out and a violation by a coach of the substitution rules after notifying the umpire of his intended action.

What "illegal" playing action do we EVER prohibit before the fact?
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,640
I'm trying to think of an "illegal act" (ie: rule violation) that does not have a penalty or consequence attached to it.

Can't think of one...

In the case of a runner going back to touch a missed/left early base when she's no longer entitled to correct her baseruinning error, I don't see that as being an illegal act. If she does go back, what is the penalty associated with doing that? There isn't one.

Rather than being an illegal act/rule violation, I'd call this a moot act. Whether she goes back or not, it has no bearing on the play or the call. All that runner did was get a little extra exercise and some baserunning practice!
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:17am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
Why do we not prevent anything that is illegal by rule? Why not prevent, not physically but verbally (i.e. "No, number 24, you can't return to 1b"), a runner returning to a base that by rule she may not return to? Both are illegal by rule.
There are varying degrees of "illegal" action that umpires deal with differently. Certain illegal acts require our immediate action, others do not. When we see a batter square around to bunt and her back foot touches home plate, we don't stop the pitcher while in motion and tell the batter to get her foot off the plate, do we? Nor do we tell the catcher who is about to scoop a loose ball with her helmet she'd better not touch it.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 09:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Suwanee Georgia
Posts: 1,050
True but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
I'm trying to think of an "illegal act" (ie: rule violation) that does not have a penalty or consequence attached to it.

Can't think of one...

In the case of a runner going back to touch a missed/left early base when she's no longer entitled to correct her baseruinning error, I don't see that as being an illegal act. If she does go back, what is the penalty associated with doing that? There isn't one.

Rather than being an illegal act/rule violation, I'd call this a moot act. Whether she goes back or not, it has no bearing on the play or the call. All that runner did was get a little extra exercise and some baserunning practice!
There are plenty of rule violations, (and going back to touch a base they are not entitled to is a rules violation), that we don't rule on until requested to.

BOO for instance. This is a rules violation, just like returning in the above scenario. Do we stop it from happening? Not in ASA. We are suppose to wait until requested to rule on it.

Do we stop a running from returning? No. But we do honor the appeal if made.

It all boils down to the rule book, which states "May not return". Can you think of a situation where an umpire would say to a player or coach "Player Y may not do X", where X is not a rules violation?
__________________
Gwinnett Umpires Association
Multicounty Softball Association
Multicounty Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 10:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
There are plenty of rule violations, (and going back to touch a base they are not entitled to is a rules violation), that we don't rule on until requested to. ...
We don't rule on that ever. The violation we rule on is missing the base / leaving the base early in the first place, not the return when they weren't entitled to. As said, above, it is better to look at this return as moot rather than illegal. We all know we can't read the rule book like Holy Writ. Even though the book would seem to declare this return as "illegal", what the rule is really saying is the action will not correct the leaving early violation.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
Are you serious? As I tried (unsuccessfully) to say above, I see a huge difference, as in not even remotely in the same conversation, a so-called "illegal" action by a player during playing action that merely places the player in jeopardy of being put out and a violation by a coach of the substitution rules after notifying the umpire of his intended action.

What "illegal" playing action do we EVER prohibit before the fact?
Batter sets up with the feet over the batter's box lines before the pitch?

Batter about to enter the box with an illegal bat?
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
Batter sets up with the feet over the batter's box lines before the pitch?

Batter about to enter the box with an illegal bat?
The second is not playing action; the first, we are explicitly told the pitch cannot proceed until the batter has both feet in the box.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 02:13pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
Can you think of a situation where an umpire would say to a player or coach "Player Y may not do X", where X is not a rules violation?
"Coach, Player Y may not turn cartwheels as she goes around the bases after a home run."

"Coach, Player Y may not wear her jersey on her legs, and her pants over her head."

"Coach, Player Y may not come to the plate with two bats."

"Coach, Player Y may not send text messages with her iPhone while in the outfield."

Sorry, been a loooong week...
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 14, 2012, 02:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
"Coach, Player Y may not turn cartwheels as she goes around the bases after a home run."

"Coach, Player Y may not wear her jersey on her legs, and her pants over her head."

"Coach, Player Y may not come to the plate with two bats."

"Coach, Player Y may not send text messages with her iPhone while in the outfield."

Sorry, been a loooong week...
Semi funny ... but these are all actually in the rules (2-4 explicitly, 1 indirectly)
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stay in the box umpjim Baseball 10 Wed Aug 04, 2010 05:24am
Should I stay or should I go Philz Basketball 21 Mon Oct 27, 2008 08:10pm
Should I Stay or Should I go. BigUmp56 Baseball 30 Tue Jul 01, 2008 09:27pm
Does he stay or does he go? GarthB Baseball 26 Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:09pm
Stay or Go? need vet help BigGref Football 11 Fri Nov 04, 2005 03:04pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:45am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1