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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 07:08am
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Unrep Sub: Say Something or Stay Mum?

I worked an ASA tourney over the weekend, and I had a situation where I wasn't sure if I did the right thing by exercising a little preventive umpiring. The offense's DP reached base on a walk, and her head coach requested time to enter a substitute runner. The offense ended up batting around in the inning, and when the DP's slot came back up, the original DP came up to the plate.

Typically, I wouldn't notice when someone who isn't in the game enters to bat or play defense. But this DP was not a typical player. She stood about 6' 4" (I'm 5' 9") and had a huge pink bow holding her ponytail together. So when she came up, I recognized she was the player who was removed for a sub earlier in the inning.

Rather than just letting her bat, I called Time and went over to her coach to inquire whether or not he was re-entering the starter. He had forgotten that he made the substitution, so he sent up the girl who ran for the DP, and we continued playing. Nobody from the opposing side said anything.

Should I have kept quiet about the unreported substitution? Is that covered in any ASA guidance to umpires?
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:00am
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My prediction ... half will say you did right, half will say you did wrong, and both sides will call the other side names.

Seriously, though, I have no problem with what you did.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 09:51am
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Crowder, you idiot, you're wrong!

I am going to take the other side, however.

ASA 6-B: ...The use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is in the game. (emphasis mine)

Since she is coming to bat, there is a potential opportunity for an out if the defense is paying attention. (6-C-3). It's not your job to remind the coach to report her back in the game.

I believe this to be a different situation than preventing a coach from making an illegal substitution. In that case, the penalty is more severe, a disqualification as opposed to an out, at the most, for an unreported sub.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Crowder, you idiot, you're wrong!

I am going to take the other side, however.

ASA 6-B: ...The use of an unreported substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is in the game. (emphasis mine)

Since she is coming to bat, there is a potential opportunity for an out if the defense is paying attention. (6-C-3). It's not your job to remind the coach to report her back in the game.

I believe this to be a different situation than preventing a coach from making an illegal substitution. In that case, the penalty is more severe, a disqualification as opposed to an out, at the most, for an unreported sub.
I'm with Andy.

And to Andy's point, lets say the defense was paying attention and was planning to utilize (6-C-3) to get an out should she reach base?
In your sitch, DC said nothing when you went over to the OC to inquire about the re-entry; but I'm sure you can imagine the possible ****house that could occur if the DC chose to make it an issue.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
...I believe this to be a different situation than preventing a coach from making an illegal substitution. In that case, the penalty is more severe, a disqualification as opposed to an out, at the most, for an unreported sub.
I agree it is a different situation, but the way I look at it is that if the coach is reporting an illegal substitution, if I don't tell him it is illegal, then I am essentially complicit by keeping an illegal lineup card.

I also agree mbcrowder is an idiot...

(So, how's this moderator stuff working out for you so far, Mike? )
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:15am
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Originally Posted by dakota View Post
(so, how's this moderator stuff working out for you so far, mike? )
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:46am
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Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
In your sitch, DC said nothing when you went over to the OC to inquire about the re-entry; but I'm sure you can imagine the possible ****house that could occur if the DC chose to make it an issue.
I can. But again, I would like to know if there's any guidance from ASA that tells umpires to not say anything in this situation.

Batting out of order is clearly an Appeal Play by rule. The umpire is not allowed to bring to the attention of either team when he/she sees an improper batter at the plate. But the unreported substitution situation does not have the same restriction to do nothing until appealed as far as I know. And not all unreported substitution violations would result in an out. So do we say nothing for any/all types, or just those that would create an out when properly discovered?
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 11:53am
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Rule 4-6-C-5 says
Quote:
5. When a runner and that runner is brought to the attention of the umpire BEFORE a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play made;
EFFECT: No penalty. Replace the unreported substitute with the correct
player or enter them as a legal substitute.
(Yeah, I know, your situation is a batter...)

The rule does not state any conditions about who brings it to the umpire's attention, or how it is brought to the umpire's attention, only that it is brought to his attention. In your situation, the player herself brought it to your attention by being physically distinctive.

Personally, I wouldn't have intervened, but you do have that principle to hang your hat on.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
I can. But again, I would like to know if there's any guidance from ASA that tells umpires to not say anything in this situation.

Batting out of order is clearly an Appeal Play by rule. The umpire is not allowed to bring to the attention of either team when he/she sees an improper batter at the plate. But the unreported substitution situation does not have the same restriction to do nothing until appealed as far as I know. And not all unreported substitution violations would result in an out. So do we say nothing for any/all types, or just those that would create an out when properly discovered?
You make a good point.
But absent that guidance from ASA, and assuming that there is not one in place already; until such time that ASA provides us by rule, R/S, manual, or a specific directive from OKC, a procedure for handling this specific sitch, I'm handling it like a batting out of order sitch.
I'd rather err that way than the other. JMO.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 01:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
Rule 4-6-C-5 says(Yeah, I know, your situation is a batter...)

The rule does not state any conditions about who brings it to the umpire's attention, or how it is brought to the umpire's attention, only that it is brought to his attention. In your situation, the player herself brought it to your attention by being physically distinctive.

Personally, I wouldn't have intervened, but you do have that principle to hang your hat on.
ASA 6-B, as quoted in my previous post, does state how an unreported sub is to be handled.....as a protest by the offended team.

If the offended team catches it, great, if not, their loss.....
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
ASA 6-B, as quoted in my previous post, does state how an unreported sub is to be handled.....as a protest by the offended team.
Not trying to be thick-headed, but in my mind I read how a violation is handled as meaning that the umpire cannot rule on the unreported substitute unless the offended team protests.

In other words, if I had let this batter bat and get on base, I could not call her out myself before the next pitch for being unreported. The defense would have had to protest the violation.

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.
Right there with you.
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.
Would you rule on any other rule violations (which this is -- a violation of the substitution/re-entry rule) before it is brought to your attention? Already mentioned was batting out of order. How about illegal re-entry (she was in the improper batting position)? How about a runner missing a base . . . leaving early . . . using the improper portion of the base at first base . . . missing a base?

In your situation (and the one's I've mentioned), you do remain silent, as (as also mentioned before), you took away a play from the defense.

Not to sound pithy, but do you need a directive from ASA/OKC to tell you NOT to intervene?

Now, if you were playing under NFHS rules, the umpire CAN discover an unreported substitute/re-entry. At which point, you issue the team warning (if it is the first time).
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 04:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
How about a runner missing a base . .
No... the rules specifically say the umpire may not rule on an appeal play until it is appealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
. leaving early . .
Yes, not an appeal play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
. using the improper portion of the base at first base . .
No, if the runner, since this is an appeal play. Yes, if this is the defense, since the runner is not out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick View Post
. missing a base?
Is there an echo in here?

As I already said, I would not intervene on an unreported substitute. Let the defense protest if they notice.

And, I would not enter an illegal player on my lineup card without first telling the coach "you can't do that, coach."
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Old Mon Sep 10, 2012, 05:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
Not trying to be thick-headed, but in my mind I read how a violation is handled as meaning that the umpire cannot rule on the unreported substitute unless the offended team protests.

In other words, if I had let this batter bat and get on base, I could not call her out myself before the next pitch for being unreported. The defense would have had to protest the violation.

That really doesn't prevent me from going to the coach and letting him/her know I detected something amiss, in my opinion.
What about fedelation? Never mind. Big slick got it.
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