procedure?

[justcallmeblue]

I am in a 14U. This is a 2 man crew and I am PU. How would you handle this, and did I handle it correctly?

No one on. left handed Batter is set up deep and outside in the box. F2 is in one of those "standing squats." As the pitch comes in, the Batter runs up for a slap. As the batter is running up the box, the catcher starts to stand up (and so do I).

The ball is slapped down and I cannot see around F2 who is now blocking my view, the ball SOUNDS like it hits the plate and bounces up and hits the bat which is still in the hands of the batter with a foot still in the box. The ball, after being hit the second time goes foul. During the second hit, I am still trying to get around the catcher but I dont have a great look at where the ball was hit the second time either as I now have a catcher and BR in the way of the play.

Now am I screwed. . .I dont know for a fact where the ball landed on the first hit and I couldnt tell where the second hit occured (fair or foul). All I know is that the ball went foul! These two factors are needed to make my decision.

I come up with the only call I can: FOUL . . .while the coach is yelling that the bat hit the ball twice and the batter runner should be out. However, knowing that I was blocked for nearly the entire play, I was already going to my BU for help. He comes up with "FOUL."

The coach is telling me that the BU couldnt possibly see that play from 60' away and my response was "I was blocked by the catcher. . .I didnt see where the ball was the first or second time. . .You (coach) saw I immediately went to my base umpire. . .I cannot call what I could not see, that's why I asked him. We both have foul."

Now, what could I have done better? Is my call even right?

Thanks for the help

[EsqUmp]

If the batter was still in the batter's box (not sure because you only said that a foot was in), it wouldn't make a difference if either hit was fair or foul provided the bat was still in the batter's hands and the batter didn't intentionally hit the ball a second time.

Could you clarify where the batter was?

Interesting the coach points out the position of the base umpire when he was probably standing nearly as far away looking through a fence.

I would certainly put the coach's comment in my back pocket and use it if he wanted an "appeal" later on.

[CecilOne]

Correct, with batter still in the box, it does not matter where the ball hit.
The batter would have to be completely out of the box, and then you would have to call fair/foul, to be out.

Handling - it is basic to umpiring not to guess an out, and typical to give the batter the benefit of the doubt in such cases.
- discuss with partner privately if possible.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

the ball SOUNDS like it hits the plate and bounces up and hits the bat which is still in the hands of the batter with a foot still in the box.

If you saw that the bat was still in the batter's hands and that she still had a foot in the box, that's all you need to make the call. As others have said, where the ball was when she hit it again is immaterial.

You really didn't have to go to your partner for help, because all he could really offer was whether or not the batter hit the ball a second time. He has no real good look at the batter being out of the box or not. And there really isn't a need to get his take on the ball's location.

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

...my response was "I was blocked by the catcher. . .I didnt see where the ball was the first or second time. . .You (coach) saw I immediately went to my base umpire. . .I cannot call what I could not see, that's why I asked him. We both have foul."

Maybe it's just me, but that was TMI. A simple, "Coach, I saw Foul, and my partner verified it," would suffice. Don't offer excuses like, "I couldn't see it," out loud like that, because that will only entice folks to criticize your umpiring skills.

[MD Longhorn]

It bothers me a bit that you care where the ball went after either hit, especially the 2nd hit.

[Jake26]

??

"a foot still in the box" and "have to be completely out of the box"

My understanding is that if you have one foot out of the batter's box (on the ground, completely outside the lines of the box), then you are out of the box. I think this is true in all sets of Rules (ASA, NFHS, NCAA), but I don't have enough books in front of me to verify that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Jake26

??

"a foot still in the box" and "have to be completely out of the box"

My understanding is that if you have one foot out of the batter's box (on the ground, completely outside the lines of the box), then you are out of the box. I think this is true in all sets of Rules (ASA, NFHS, NCAA), but I don't have enough books in front of me to verify that.

Only with the ball being batted, not when the ball hits the bat a second time, or hits the batter.
That rule would only apply to the "The ball is slapped down " part of the OP.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Jake26

My understanding is that if you have one foot out of the batter's box (on the ground, completely outside the lines of the box), then you are out of the box. I think this is true in all sets of Rules (ASA, NFHS, NCAA), but I don't have enough books in front of me to verify that.

True. But there was no indication from the OP that one of the batter's feet was completely out of the box on the ground when she hit the ball a second time. He just said one foot was still in the box. The other foot could have been up in the air (which, chances are on a slap, it was if the one foot is on the ground in the box).

[Jake26]

Originally Posted by Manny A

True. But there was no indication from the OP that one of the batter's feet was completely out of the box on the ground when she hit the ball a second time. He just said one foot was still in the box. The other foot could have been up in the air (which, chances are on a slap, it was if the one foot is on the ground in the box).

I suppose. But when the OP says "one foot still in the box", I inferred that that meant to the OP that the batter was "in the box." Perhaps I read too much into the phrase.

[Andy]

Seems to me that all you have here is a foul ball. The only question is whether or not the batter hit the ball a second time intentionally.

Since you only heard what you thought was the ball hitting the bat a second time, and didn't see it, that is what you need to address with your partner.

Ignore the coach (for now), call your partner in privately, as Cecil suggested, and ask him if the batter hit the ball a second time intentionally. BU should have had an unobstructed view of that. Make the call based on the information he gives you.

I don't have a problem with you telling the coach that the catcher blocked you by standing up...that's what happened in this unusual play.

Basically, I think you handled it fine, just some minor things that could have been done differently

[MD Longhorn]

This would have been handled easily and quickly by a quick and confident, "FOUL BALL" call when it hit the bat the second time. I can count the number of times (in 20 years) that I've seen a batter hit the ball intentionally a 2nd time on no fingers. I can count the number of times a batter has managed to be IN the box the first time they hit it and OUT of the box 4 milliseconds later when the ball hit the bat a 2nd times on no fingers as well.

If coach comes out, "Coach she was still in the box when it hit the bat (don't say when she hit it) the 2nd time". If HE thinks she did it on purpose and asks about it (which he won't!), you can go ask your partner if he/she thought the second hit was intentional (it won't be).

I think the crux is - if you had known the rule, and that it didn't matter one iota whether the ball was fair or foul after the first hit and fair or foul after the second hit, you would have alleviated yourself of this entire scenario.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Only with the ball being batted, not when the ball hits the bat a second time, or hits the batter.
That rule would only apply to the "The ball is slapped down " part of the OP.

Is this still in the ASA Umpires Manual? I have an older electronic copy. It's under the Points of Emphasis section:

24. HITTING THE BALL A SECOND TIME.
When an umpire considers the act of a batter hitting the ball a second time, he should place the act into one of three categories.
A. If the bat is in the hands of the batter when the ball comes in contact with it, and the batter is in the batter's box, it is a foul ball. If an entire foot of the batter is completely outside the batter's box, he is out. When in doubt, don't guess the batter out. Call it a foul ball.

So, at least in ASA, the batter's foot being completely out of the box (and presumably on the ground) when the bat contacts the ball again is grounds for calling an out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Is this still in the ASA Umpires Manual? I have an older electronic copy. It's under the Points of Emphasis section:

24. HITTING THE BALL A SECOND TIME.
When an umpire considers the act of a batter hitting the ball a second time, he should place the act into one of three categories.
A. If the bat is in the hands of the batter when the ball comes in contact with it, and the batter is in the batter's box, it is a foul ball. If an entire foot of the batter is completely outside the batter's box, he is out. When in doubt, don't guess the batter out. Call it a foul ball.

So, at least in ASA, the batter's foot being completely out of the box (and presumably on the ground) when the bat contacts the ball again is grounds for calling an out.

Yes it is still in ASA RS 24 as above.
However, it also says "When in doubt, don't guess the batter out. Call it a foul ball".

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Yes it is still in ASA RS 24 as above.
However, it also says "When in doubt, don't guess the batter out. Call it a foul ball".

I agree. My point was that, at least in ASA, the foot being completely out of the box and on the ground doesn't only apply to when a pitch is initially batted. It also applies if the batter hits the ball a second time while her foot is out of the box.

But good luck seeing THAT!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

I am in a 14U. This is a 2 man crew and I am PU. How would you handle this, and did I handle it correctly?

No one on. left handed Batter is set up deep and outside in the box. F2 is in one of those "standing squats." As the pitch comes in, the Batter runs up for a slap. As the batter is running up the box, the catcher starts to stand up (and so do I).

The ball is slapped down and I cannot see around F2 who is now blocking my view, the ball SOUNDS like it hits the plate and bounces up and hits the bat which is still in the hands of the batter with a foot still in the box. The ball, after being hit the second time goes foul. During the second hit, I am still trying to get around the catcher but I dont have a great look at where the ball was hit the second time either as I now have a catcher and BR in the way of the play.

Now am I screwed. . .I dont know for a fact where the ball landed on the first hit and I couldnt tell where the second hit occured (fair or foul). All I know is that the ball went foul! These two factors are needed to make my decision.

I come up with the only call I can: FOUL . . .while the coach is yelling that the bat hit the ball twice and the batter runner should be out. However, knowing that I was blocked for nearly the entire play, I was already going to my BU for help. He comes up with "FOUL."

The coach is telling me that the BU couldnt possibly see that play from 60' away and my response was "I was blocked by the catcher. . .I didnt see where the ball was the first or second time. . .You (coach) saw I immediately went to my base umpire. . .I cannot call what I could not see, that's why I asked him. We both have foul."

Now, what could I have done better? Is my call even right?

Thanks for the help

You reference a concern about where the ball hits the ground and I do not understand why, it is irrelevant to, well, anything to do with the play.

Even though the BU was more likely 70-75' away, it is still an extra pair of eyes. However, I don't know if I would have gone to him immediately. No reason to put your partner on the hook for information that may not be available.

You made a decision based upon all the available information. Sounds like you did your job. Thank you.