Batter runner in jeopardy?

[jmkupka]

after beating the throw at 1B, BR veers into foul territory. The throw gets past F3, but F2 is right there to back it up. Seeing it get past F3, BR flinches toward 2B, but thinks better of it:

a) after turning to the right
b) after turning to the left

All this happens in foul territory.
Is the BR in jeopardy in a or b or both?

The foul ground aspect is my question... the "flinch" was big enough to warrant jeopardy if it was in fair territory...

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

after beating the throw at 1B, BR veers into foul territory. The throw gets past F3, but F2 is right there to back it up. Seeing it get past F3, BR flinches toward 2B, but thinks better of it:

a) after turning to the right
b) after turning to the left

All this happens in foul territory.
Is the BR in jeopardy in a or b or both?

The foul ground aspect is my question... the "flinch" was big enough to warrant jeopardy if it was in fair territory...

Look in the rules and see if runner's position at the time of the flinch is part of the determination.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

after beating the throw at 1B, BR veers into foul territory. The throw gets past F3, but F2 is right there to back it up. Seeing it get past F3, BR flinches toward 2B, but thinks better of it:

a) after turning to the right
b) after turning to the left

All this happens in foul territory.
Is the BR in jeopardy in a or b or both?

The foul ground aspect is my question... the "flinch" was big enough to warrant jeopardy if it was in fair territory...

I don't believe "fair or foul" territory has an bearing on this play. Rule 8-7-h talks about an attempt to run to second base. Is flinching an attempt? Sounds like a HTBT.

I'm probably not seeing that as an attempt to run to 2B.

[jmkupka]

Hey Chess,

Instead of "flinch", let's say "full step towards 2b" but all still in foul ground.
If fair or foul has no bearing on the matter, then I was correct in my out call.
Thanks.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I don't believe "fair or foul" territory has an bearing on this play. Rule 8-7-h talks about an attempt to run to second base. Is flinching an attempt? Sounds like a HTBT.

I'm probably not seeing that as an attempt to run to 2B.

You said:

I don't believe "fair or foul" territory has an bearing on this play. Rule 8-7-h talks about an attempt to run to second base.

He already stated:

the "flinch" was big enough to warrant jeopardy if it was in fair territory...

So how can you say?

I'm probably not seeing that as an attempt to run to 2B

Just curious.

[jwwashburn]

Which set of rules?

I have to echo Rich and ask if you checked the book right after the game.

[Chess Ref]

I'll try and explain my thinking.

I was clarifying that it doesn't matter if the flinch occurred in fair/foul territory.

So it seems he's applying a standard (if she's in fair) that doesn't matter or exist. A flinch to me is moving my head quickly at a backstop on a foul ball.

There can a pretty big gap between a flinch, and attempting to run to 2B.

He saw a flinch as an attempt,good enough for me. I see a flinch as a minor movement of the head, elbow, or other body part. I see an attempt along the lines of a step towards 2B.

Confused now ? I am.

[jmkupka]

I'd like PONY and ASA's ruling. Happened last night, just thinking about it now (in work, instead of working ), so no book to refer to...

[jwwashburn]

ASA just says she can be tagged if she makes an attempt. The Rules supplement specifically says fair/foul is irrelevant.

[HugoTafurst]

FWIW, to my knowledge:
1) Technically (NFHS) a runner attempting to advance to 2nd after overrunning 1st is a (live ball) appeal play. In practical terms, it is treated similar to appealing a runner leaving base before a caught fly ball is touched in that the tag of the runner is assumed to be an appeal that she attempted to advance (whether stated or not)
2) The direction a BR first turns (after overrunning 1st) is not relevant to being tagged out "attempting to advance", BUT in many rule sets it IS relevant as relates to the look back rule.

For instance:

2011NFHS

SECTION 7 (F.P.) LOOK-BACK RULE
ART. 4 . . . Responsibilities of batter-runner after completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the 16-foot pitching circle, including a base on balls or a dropped third strike are as follows:

a. A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but
then must immediately, without stopping, return to first or attempt to
advance to second base.

b. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and
immediately stops, must then return non-stop to first or attempt to advance
to second base.

c. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and
moves directly toward second base and stops is committed to second and
must attempt to advance non-stop to second base.

d. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and
moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second
base is committed to first and must return to first base.

e. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, and turns right,
is committed to first base and must return to first base.

I know it's more than you asked.... but what the heck

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I know it's more than you asked.... but what the heck

Not really more because it shows that even in the most stringent rule, ther is no mention of fair or foul.

[jmkupka]

c,d & e are my favorite rules in the book (that's not wrong, is it?)

Had a coach tell me "You're wrong, blue!! We've been doing this for YEARS!! It's called the Sneaky Steal!!

Had a coach tell me she already ran this past the tournament director just in case, and he was fine with it.

It's about the only rule I can quote, chapter and verse, for them to read out in the parking lot, when they argue themselves into an ejection.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

c,d & e are my favorite rules in the book (that's not wrong, is it?)

Had a coach tell me "You're wrong, blue!! We've been doing this for YEARS!! It's called the Sneaky Steal!!

Had a coach tell me she already ran this past the tournament director just in case, and he was fine with it.

It's about the only rule I can quote, chapter and verse, for them to read out in the parking lot, when they argue themselves into an ejection.

FWIW (again) (I don't know IFA), but the only rule that would allow you to pull the "Sneaky Steal" is NCAA.
(And I don't think I'd hear that description).

[jmkupka]

"d. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and
moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second
base is committed to first and must return to first base."


So this is legal in NCAA?

This is from Fed, but ASA is virtually identical, 8.7.T (see?)

[Andy]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

"d. A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and
moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second
base is committed to first and must return to first base."


So this is legal in NCAA?

This is from Fed, but ASA is virtually identical, 8.7.T (see?)

Here is the NCAA rule:

12.21.6.5 The batter-runner, after overrunning first base, must immediately
return nonstop to first base or, if she does not retouch first base, must make
an attempt to advance to second. If after passing the base, the runner is
heading back toward first within the basepath extended, she may make
a decision to go to either base. However, stepping beyond the extended
basepath in foul territory commits the runner to first base while stepping
beyond the basepath toward the second-base side commits the runner to
second base.

Basically, the runner can overrun first base and as long as they stay within 3 feet of the foul line in either direction, head back to first base and then take off for second at any time prior to touching first. If they touch first base, they are committed to first.