Umpire putting Batter/Runner in jeopardy?

[DaveASA/FED]

Two strikes, ball comes in check swing, catcher drops the ball. You call a ball, catcher asks you to go to partner, you do (praying they stick with the ball call) partner says she went giving the hammer. Now catcher easily tags BR still standing in batters box. Question: By the BU signaling a strike did it put the BR in jeopardy as they didn't have a chance to run after finding out it was a dropped 3rd strike? What would you do in this case, besides get ready for a nice calm discussion with the offensive coach??

[Dakota]

If the batter swung, why was she just standing there?

The BU did not put the batter in jeopardy; her swing and miss / failure to run did.

[MNBlue]

NFHS rules

I WOULD not go to my partner. I feel that sometimes you have to live with your calls, good or bad. By going to my partner, I am putting the BR in jeopardy for not making a call for whatever reason I did not make. Not fair - probably. But what is the greater unfairness.

I have had the pleasure to work with some people who would call the pitch a strike and let the chips fall where they may, since that gives everyone an equal opportunity to complete the play. My feeling is - I called the pitch a ball because I thought it was a ball. I am not now going to put the BR in jeopardy to cover up a call I may have kicked. Sometimes, I have to be the fall guy.

To the defensive coach: Coach, I called it a ball and I am sticking with my call. In NFHS rules, I don't HAVE to go to my partner for help. Life happens.

[MichaelVA2000]

MNBlue,

My 2006 and 2007 Federation Umpire's manual says on page 34 under Checked-Swing: "If the umpire calls the pitch a ball and the catcher request help, ask for it. If in doubt go to your partner before they ask you."

Originally posted by MNBlue
NFHS rules

I WOULD not go to my partner. I feel that sometimes you have to live with your calls, good or bad. By going to my partner, I am putting the BR in jeopardy for not making a call for whatever reason I did not make. Not fair - probably. But what is the greater unfairness.

I have had the pleasure to work with some people who would call the pitch a strike and let the chips fall where they may, since that gives everyone an equal opportunity to complete the play. My feeling is - I called the pitch a ball because I thought it was a ball. I am not now going to put the BR in jeopardy to cover up a call I may have kicked. Sometimes, I have to be the fall guy.

To the defensive coach: Coach, I called it a ball and I am sticking with my call. In NFHS rules, I don't HAVE to go to my partner for help. Life happens.

[Justme]

Originally posted by MNBlue
NFHS rules

I WOULD not go to my partner. I feel that sometimes you have to live with your calls, good or bad. By going to my partner, I am putting the BR in jeopardy for not making a call for whatever reason I did not make. Not fair - probably. But what is the greater unfairness.

I have had the pleasure to work with some people who would call the pitch a strike and let the chips fall where they may, since that gives everyone an equal opportunity to complete the play. My feeling is - I called the pitch a ball because I thought it was a ball. I am not now going to put the BR in jeopardy to cover up a call I may have kicked. Sometimes, I have to be the fall guy.

To the defensive coach: Coach, I called it a ball and I am sticking with my call. In NFHS rules, I don't HAVE to go to my partner for help. Life happens.

If F2 asks you to go for help on a check swing (ball call only) then you should go for help.

Like the FED Umpire's Manual says "If the umpire calls the pitch a ball and the catcher requests help, ask for it. It is not a weakness to go for help. If in doubt , go to your partner for help before they ask."

My high school baseball association (I work both SB/BB) has adopted the Voluntary Strike Mechanic (used at higher levels of baseball) for just this situation. Here it is:

In a situation where the batter is permitted, by rule, to advance to first base on a dropped third strike, the base umpire in a two man crew, or the appropriate umpire in a three or four man crew, may immediately and voluntarily, make a strike call IF the base umpire intended to reverse the plate umpire if the plate umpire has asked. This mechanic gives the batter an immediate opportunity to run.

Example: With first base unoccupied and a 3-2 count, the batter checks his swing and the ball eludes the catcher. If the first base umpire intended to call a strike on appeal from the plate umpire, the first base umpire may make the call immediately.

The mechanic is for the base umpire to raise his right arm above his head, fist closed, and loudly and emphatically announces “The batter went, the batter went.”

[WestMichiganBlue]

If the batter swung, why was she just standing there?

Because the PU said that she did not legally swing - he called it a BALL!

The BU did not put the batter in jeopardy; her swing and miss / failure to run did

The batter heard ball, she is standing there. Now the BU reverses the call to a strike. Why isn't that placing her in jeopardy?

This is one situation where I WILL NOT go to my partner. I will tell the catcher and/or coach that I made the call and will stick with it - for the obvious reason that the runner did not get a fair chance to advance to 1B.

WMB

[Justme]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
If the batter swung, why was she just standing there?

Because the PU said that she did not legally swing - he called it a BALL!

The BU did not put the batter in jeopardy; her swing and miss / failure to run did

The batter heard ball, she is standing there. Now the BU reverses the call to a strike. Why isn't that placing her in jeopardy?

This is one situation where I WILL NOT go to my partner. I will tell the catcher and/or coach that I made the call and will stick with it - for the obvious reason that the runner did not get a fair chance to advance to 1B.

WMB

To be honest, if I'm on bases and we're not using the Voluntary Strike mechanic, I wouldn't reverse my partners call in this situation.

In this situation it's easier to live with a checked swing that really was a strike then a delayed 3rd strike call from your partner on a ball that hit the ground or got away from F2.

UNLESS, it was the last out in the bottom of the 7th and I was tired, then it's a strike all the way.



Wait......Don't hurt me.....I'm only joking

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Justme


My high school baseball association (I work both SB/BB) has adopted the Voluntary Strike Mechanic (used at higher levels of baseball) for just this situation. Here it is:

In a situation where the batter is permitted, by rule, to advance to first base on a dropped third strike, the base umpire in a two man crew, or the appropriate umpire in a three or four man crew, may immediately and voluntarily, make a strike call IF the base umpire intended to reverse the plate umpire if the plate umpire has asked. This mechanic gives the batter an immediate opportunity to run.

Example: With first base unoccupied and a 3-2 count, the batter checks his swing and the ball eludes the catcher. If the first base umpire intended to call a strike on appeal from the plate umpire, the first base umpire may make the call immediately.

The mechanic is for the base umpire to raise his right arm above his head, fist closed, and loudly and emphatically announces “The batter went, the batter went.”

Do us a favor and keep such absurdities in baseball. This is the exact type of stuff (automatic appeal, automatic base on OBS, etc.) from which Fed softball moved away and, IMO, made it a better game.

[Justme]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Do us a favor and keep such absurdities in baseball. This is the exact type of stuff (automatic appeal, automatic base on OBS, etc.) from which Fed softball moved away and, IMO, made it a better game.

Wow!!! I'm not trying to change softball, I was merely sharing a mechanic that is used elsewhere. You don't have to subscribe to it. You don't have to like it but I should be able to comment on it without attack. I always listen to what others have to share and no matter how stupid I think their comments are I always respect their right to make them. But I was raised to respect the opinions of others.

I wasn't aware that I had broken a forum rule by my post. So, am I to understand that while on the softball side of the world I am not to make comments when my point of reference is baseball?

Just for the record, I do not use that mechanic in softball, but I would if I could.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
If the batter swung, why was she just standing there?

Because the PU said that she did not legally swing - he called it a BALL!

The BU did not put the batter in jeopardy; her swing and miss / failure to run did

The batter heard ball, she is standing there. Now the BU reverses the call to a strike. Why isn't that placing her in jeopardy?

This is one situation where I WILL NOT go to my partner. I will tell the catcher and/or coach that I made the call and will stick with it - for the obvious reason that the runner did not get a fair chance to advance to 1B.

WMB

If this player has any experience at all, she has seen several checked swing ball calls over turned after the PU goes for help. We require the catcher to know the game situation, so should the batter. The matter is not settled by the PU's call of "ball." If the checked swing was close, she should have been running.

I'm just answering the OP's question... did the PU put the batter in jeopardy by going for help? In my view, no, he did not.

[MNBlue]

Originally posted by Dakota

If this player has any experience at all, she has seen several checked swing ball calls over turned after the PU goes for help. We require the catcher to know the game situation, so should the batter. The matter is not settled by the PU's call of "ball." If the checked swing was close, she should have been running.

I'm just answering the OP's question... did the PU put the batter in jeopardy by going for help? In my view, no, he did not.

Dakota,

I disagree. In the OP, the PU called the pitch a ball. The batter goes with the PU's call. By going to the BU, the PU put the BR in jeopardy. I think PU has to eat the call and take the heat.

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MNBlue

I disagree. In the OP, the PU called the pitch a ball. The batter goes with the PU's call. By going to the BU, the PU put the BR in jeopardy. I think PU has to eat the call and take the heat.

If this were 14U rec league ball, I might would agree with you. However, if this was any high level of ball, then I agree with Dakota's assessment. If there is a chance that a strike could be called, in other words, if there is a chance on appeal that the checked swing could be called a strike, then the batter should be aware of the situation and be running. If it the BU feels that the PU nailed the call, and stays with the ball call, it is a simple thing to call the batter back and reset for the next pitch.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by MNBlue
Dakota,

I disagree. In the OP, the PU called the pitch a ball. The batter goes with the PU's call. By going to the BU, the PU put the BR in jeopardy. I think PU has to eat the call and take the heat.

Can't agree with you. Our primary function is to make the correct calls and enforce the rules so that the teams have an even playing field. In no other circumstance that I can think of is it legitimate to get help from a better perspective, but we should refuse to do that sometimes in fear that our call would be changed.

In other words, if you would check on potential strike one or strike two, you have no basis to not check on potential strike three. That is an old baseball mentality, and is unsupported in the softball world. Get the call right; if the batter swung, it should be called a swing.

Base umpire, it better be a full swing that your partner missed, black and white, not gray, but make the call. In that case, the batter and offensive coach has no arguement that you had to make the call, and the batter has to know it was a swing and should have run, no matter what PU called.

[Edited by AtlUmpSteve on Mar 16th, 2006 at 12:14 PM]

[WestMichBlue]

Get the call right; if the batter swung, it should be called a swing

Who says that one umpire's call is more right than another's? In every other situation where you may have a call compromised by a bad angle, different view, etc. the two umpires get together and discuss it. When the discussion is over, the calling umpire still makes the decision as to reverse or stay with his call.

But in a checked swing review, there is no discussion. The calling umpire is overruled by the BU. And everyone says," Oh good, we got the call right." An umpire 75' away who may also have been watching a runner somehow is deemed more right then the PU.

Not only is the BU further away, he has a different angle (not necessarily right, just different), and possibly has different judgment values as to what constitutes a swing. (Again, not more right, just different).

I don’t see it as a case of who is right or wrong. I feel that there are times when I do not want my call changed. If it is a discussion situation, I can disregard my partner’s input and stay with my original call. In a checked swing situation, I do not get that option – unless I refuse to go to partner. Which is my right!

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

I am surprised at the number of people trying to defend their position on this play that are taking what I consider to be an untenable position. That an umpire’s verbalization of his call, which is designed to let those players in the immediate area know the call and act accordingly without seeing a visual signal – is not to be believed. The player is required to act on their own information, under threat of penalty, regardless of what the umpire said.

So a batter that struck out and runs towards 1B should not stop when the umpires calls “batter is out.” If she thinks the catcher dropped the ball she should keep right on running because the umpire decision eventually might be reversed.

I had a runner stealing 2B pull up and not slide when she heard the PU call “FOUL” on a foul tip. She was an easy out because the catcher knew better and threw to 2B. Should I tell the runner, “Too bad, you should have known that a foul tip is live ball and kept running.”

On a bang-bang play the runner is called out and she gets up and walks away. The defender who knew that she dropped the ball tags her. Do we say to the runner that she should have known the ball was dropped? Thus was her responsibility to stay on the base pending a possible reversal of the call?

OK, maybe these scenarios are a little facetious, but players are trained to react to our calls. To suggest that they should ignore us because they should anticipate our call being overruled is ludicrous, IMO.

WMB