DP/FLEX case 120516a

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Could you kindly pre-identify posts where you pose a question, but already know the answer.

I'd rather not waste my time trying to find the words to explain something to someone who already knows the answer.

Thanks,

OK.

I was hoping someone who did not understand would ask/comment and we could clarify, as you did. Sorry.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by cecilone

ok.

i was hoping someone who did not understand would ask/comment and we could clarify, as you did. Sorry.

:d

[x-tremeump]

I have had a hard time teaching this in my area. The old way "When I do not know" they say that the DP/Flex can change positions during the game an unlimited number of times ??? Then the DP gets on base and they allow the flex to run for her, The DP is not F1 or F2. The CR is also a hard rule to get some old timers to follow they allow any bench player run for F1 or F2, and not the same runner. who ever the coach wants to put in. Help me in a very simple way to teach this.

[tcannizzo]

You need to separate lineup designations "DP/Flex" from the individual players (starters and subs).
They can swap lineup designations unlimited to the extent that they have enough players to accommodate this within standard re-entry rules.

[x-tremeump]

DP gets on base, coach wants the flex to run. That is a substitution ???
DP batter # 4 switches with the flex # 10 on the line up card. That is a substitution ????

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

DP gets on base, coach wants the flex to run. That is a substitution ???
DP batter # 4 switches on the line-up card with the flex. That is a substitution ????

The easiest way I have to think of this is the FLEX is a defensive specialist, as long as they play defense they have not left the game. The DP is an offensive specialist as long as they play offense they have not left the game. Now start through all your weird plays or "subs" and keep these in mind and you should be able to come up with the right answers!

So in your first question, the FLEX runs for the DP this means the DP is no longer playing offense so she has left the game (still has one reentry). The FLEX who will still play defense has had no change to her status, other than now she is now doing two jobs (her job of defense and DP's job of offense).

I am not sure what you are saying in your second question.
Possibility #1) Are you saying that the #4 batter who is the DP comes in to play offense for the FLEX? If that is what you are saying then (assumming that player is the starting DP) then that DP has used her one re-entry and the FLEX is back to playing defense only, and as long as they do play defense they have never left the game.

Possibility #2) Are you saying that the #4 batter who is the DP is going to play defense for the FLEX? If this is the case then the FLEX has left the game (not playing defense anymore), but the DP who will continue to play offense has had no change in her status, other than now she is now doing two jobs (her job of offense and FLEX's job of defense).


Again coaches can and will use this rule multiple ways and add all sorts of twists and turns to it....but if you keep the basic of if the DP always plays offense when they are suppose to, and the FLEX always plays defense when they are suppose to then they have not left the game. And if they don't "do their job" then they have left the game you should be able to sort through the confusion and get the right ruling!!

[x-tremeump]

Thanks, Coach says I want my DP & Flex to swap positions.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

I have had a hard time teaching this in my area. The old way "When I do not know" they say that the DP/Flex can change positions during the game an unlimited number of times ??? Then the DP gets on base and they allow the flex to run for her, The DP is not F1 or F2. The CR is also a hard rule to get some old timers to follow they allow any bench player run for F1 or F2, and not the same runner. who ever the coach wants to put in. Help me in a very simple way to teach this.

I'm thinking that any bench player, who hasn't participated, can run. So you can have different CR's for either the F1/F2.

[x-tremeump]

If # 24 runs for F1 in the 1st inning can she run for F2 in the 3rd inning ? # 11 runs for F2. #24 & #11 are the only players that have not been in the game. Now is #24 locked in for F1 & # 11 locked for F2 for CR for the game untill they enter the game ? They think a bench player that has been in the game and has been substituted for is eligible to be a CR.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

If # 24 runs for F1 in the 1st inning can she run for F2 in the 3rd inning ?

No. A player can CR for only one position player, F1 or F2. It doesn't have to be the same player. For example, if #10 is the starting F1, and #24 runs for her, #24 may also CR for relief F1 #15 when she pitches, as long as #24 hasn't been in the game.

Originally Posted by xtreamump

# 11 runs for F2. #24 & #11 are the only players that have not been in the game. Now is #24 locked in for F1 & # 11 locked for F2 for CR for the game untill they enter the game ?

Yes.

Originally Posted by xtreamump

They think a bench player that has been in the game and has been substituted for is eligible to be a CR.

Whoever "they" are are wrong, under rule. Once a player has entered the game, she is no longer eligible to CR the rest of the game.

That said, some rec leagues have house rules that allow all sorts of crazy CR variations. So "they" may be thinking the actual book rules allow that.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

Thanks, Coach says I want my DP & Flex to swap positions.

That's when we ask WTF do you mean coach? NEVER accept this sort of statement from a coach, always get more clarity to make sure you record the change correctly and sometimes that they know what they are doing correctly!

Blue: Coach let me get my lineup out here what do you want to do?
Coach: I want my DP & FLEX to swap positions
Blue: So you want your FLEX to bat for your DP, or your DP to play Defense for your FLEX?

Those are the only two possible things a coach can legally do with the FLEX/DP so make sure you have perfect clarity on which they want, and if necessary be ready to explain what that change does to their ability to re-enter later.

Continue from above
Coach: I want my FLEX to bat for my DP
Blue: Ok so the DP has left the game but still has her one reentry (as you are marking your lineup card) and the FLEX is up here (drawing an arrow up for the FLEX to bat in the DP spot) batting for the DP, ok no problem coach

By saying that while the coach is next to you it lets it sink in to him/her that the DP has left the game and can only re-enter once.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

(Snip)
That said, some rec leagues have house rules that allow all sorts of crazy CR variations. So "they" may be thinking the actual book rules allow that.

Not sure if you are trying to be elitist or what by referring to "REC leagues","house rules" and "crazy CR variations", but there are several other "respected" softball organizations which BY RULE have variations which are not crazy at all.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Not sure if you are trying to be elitist or what by referring to "REC leagues","house rules" and "crazy CR variations", but there are several other "respected" softball organizations which BY RULE have variations which are not crazy at all.

By "rec" leagues, I mean local leagues in my area that play under ASA rules, but have "house" rules that allow for:

- the CR to be the player who "made the last out". So, different CRs can run for the same F2 in one inning! And what happens when there is no player who made the last out because the team constantly scores its max runs in each inning without making an out? Yes, I had to adjudicate that discussion.

- the CR to be the player who "made the second out of the inning", and only brought in to run for F1 or F2 when there are two outs. So, if a team doesn't record any outs in an inning, or records only one, they are not allowed to use a CR.

- the CR is "a player who will be the last batter in that inning." So what the heck does THAT mean? If F2 bats before her and gets on base, what now?

- CRs being mandatory. Seriously. The rule for this rec league says, "Courtesy runners are mandatory for catcher or pitcher on base with 2 team outs." Then the rule goes on to say, "The catcher/pitcher is defined as the player who will play at the catcher's or pitcher's position in the following 'defensive' portion of the inning." So, we can't enter a CR for the current pitcher of record if we intend on replacing her the next defensive inning?

Yes, crazy.

[x-tremeump]

Thanks, very helpful

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Whenever a coach comes up with one of these schemes, I have to slow down.
Sometimes I have to translate what they are saying they want to do into what they are actually doing.

I'm the same way.
I utilize EA's lineup card management system.....it helps me keep straight what the coach can or cannot legally do regarding the use of his DP/Flex.