When is courtesy runner legally in game?

[drh898]

Situation came up in yesterday's game, catcher singled, once play stopped coach called time and requested courtesy runner for the catcher. Number 8 came out and replaced catcher at first. PU (I'm the BU) announced to scorer that #8 is courtesy runner for the catcher. Just before the first pitch to the next batter coach calls time and announces he wants #5 to be the courtesy runner instead of #8. BU allows this. Between innings the other coach questions the replacement of the CR and PU now claims that both
#5 and #8 have entered the game and were not CRs. (He never called me over to confer and we are told by our association that the BU never joins a discussion with coaches unless asked). So now there is confusion as to who has entered the game, etc.

I believe that once a CR replaces a pitcher or catcher that CR cannot be then run for in that sequence unless injured. Correct me if I'm wrong there. In discussing this with another veteran umpire he said that the coach could replace the CR before the first pitch to the next batter. So, in a nutshell, when is a player legally in the game? When she is announced by the PU to the scorer or after the first pitch to the next batter?

[RKBUmp]

I believe it is going to depend on which rule set you were playing under. ASA doesnt mention it under courtesy runners other than they must be reported to the plate umpire, but under substitutions once reported to the plate umpire they are considered in the game.

As I recall, FED this year came out with a ruling that substitutes were not officially in the game until a pitch had been thrown.

[MNBlue]

NFHS 8-9-6

ART. 6 . . . Once the courtesy runner is designated for that half-inning, the pitcher or catcher for whom she is running may not return to run while that courtesy runner is on base. A courtesy runner shall not run for a courtesy runner. When a legal substitute replaces a courtesy runner, the player for whom she was running has left the game.

A substitute can replace a CR, but she is replacing the pitcher or catcher for whom the CR is running.

When the PU announced that #8 was the courtesy runner, she was in the game. Sounds like #5 was never reported in the game. If so, she was an un-reported sub. Put her in the game and warn the coach. #5 can't come in for the CR, so when she came in the game, she was replacing the catcher as a substitute.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by drh898

Situation came up in yesterday's game, catcher singled, once play stopped coach called time and requested courtesy runner for the catcher. Number 8 came out and replaced catcher at first. PU (I'm the BU) announced to scorer that #8 is courtesy runner for the catcher. Just before the first pitch to the next batter coach calls time and announces he wants #5 to be the courtesy runner instead of #8. BU allows this. Between innings the other coach questions the replacement of the CR and PU now claims that both
#5 and #8 have entered the game and were not CRs. (He never called me over to confer and we are told by our association that the BU never joins a discussion with coaches unless asked). So now there is confusion as to who has entered the game, etc.

I believe that once a CR replaces a pitcher or catcher that CR cannot be then run for in that sequence unless injured. Correct me if I'm wrong there. In discussing this with another veteran umpire he said that the coach could replace the CR before the first pitch to the next batter. So, in a nutshell, when is a player legally in the game? When she is announced by the PU to the scorer or after the first pitch to the next batter?

BU allows this. You meant PU, right?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I believe it is going to depend on which rule set you were playing under. ASA doesnt mention it under courtesy runners other than they must be reported to the plate umpire, but under substitutions once reported to the plate umpire they are considered in the game.

As I recall, FED this year came out with a ruling that substitutes were not officially in the game until a pitch had been thrown.

I would say that the CR is in the game once the CR is announced AND THEN once umpire accepts the change. If the umpire turned and announced #8 was a CR, then the change is accepted.

In every other case where there are changes to the line-up or runners, the book always says that it's once it's announced. I suspect this is nothing more than an oversight, as even the Senior Slow Pitch CR section says that it's when it's announced.

[shipwreck]

When a sub replaces the CR, the player that the CR is running for has left the game. So in this scenario, the catcher has left the game. She may re-enter if she has eligibility to do so. Dave

[ronald]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

When a sub replaces the CR, the player that the CR is running for has left the game. So in this scenario, the catcher has left the game. She may re-enter if she has eligibility to do so. Dave

+1. I think Mark said the same thing.

[drh898]

Yes, now that I read the rule, once #8 was "designated" (which I take to mean has been announced, noted and reported to the scorekeeper) #5 could then come in to run for #8, but, that means that we have a substitution for the catcher. #5 has just entered the game in place of the catcher.

I'm talking Fed, and the rule is 8.9.6 and case book 8.9.6 Situation F

[txtrooper]

Originally Posted by drh898

Situation came up in yesterday's game, catcher singled, once play stopped coach called time and requested courtesy runner for the catcher. Number 8 came out and replaced catcher at first. PU (I'm the BU) announced to scorer that #8 is courtesy runner for the catcher. Just before the first pitch to the next batter coach calls time and announces he wants #5 to be the courtesy runner instead of #8. BU allows this. Between innings the other coach questions the replacement of the CR and PU now claims that both
#5 and #8 have entered the game and were not CRs. (He never called me over to confer and we are told by our association that the BU never joins a discussion with coaches unless asked). So now there is confusion as to who has entered the game, etc.

I believe that once a CR replaces a pitcher or catcher that CR cannot be then run for in that sequence unless injured. Correct me if I'm wrong there. In discussing this with another veteran umpire he said that the coach could replace the CR before the first pitch to the next batter. So, in a nutshell, when is a player legally in the game? When she is announced by the PU to the scorer or after the first pitch to the next batter?

In ASA the sub/CR is officially in the game when reported to the PU. A CR may not run for a CR (illegal runner). PU should not have allowed the CR to run for a CR (Rule 8, Section 10) and talked to the coach to prevent this from happening. Number 5 could have substituted for #8 and the catcher would have left the game; she would be allowed to re-enter if she had not already done so one time.