courtesy runner....

[thumpferee]

Courtesy runner comes in for pitcher who is on 1st in the 6th. Next batter singles and courtesy runner is now on 2nd. Coach requests time for a pinch runner to run for the courtesy runner, PU allows the switch. The coach then informs PU he has a sub to enter as the next batter who is the courtesy runner.

After the 1st pitch the opposing coach comes out arguing he is an illegle sub, PU agrees and calls the batter out.

What am I missing here?

[DG]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

Courtesy runner comes in for pitcher who is on 1st in the 6th. Next batter singles and courtesy runner is now on 2nd. Coach requests time for a pinch runner to run for the courtesy runner, PU allows the switch. The coach then informs PU he has a sub to enter as the next batter who is the courtesy runner.

After the 1st pitch the opposing coach comes out arguing he is an illegal sub, PU agrees and calls the batter out.

What am I missing here?

Interesting concept, a pinch courtesy runner, for the courtesy runner. I would probably allow that as long as pinch courtesy runner is eligible to be a courtesy runner for the position he is pinch courtesy running for, simply because I don't know of a prohibition for it.

But the part you are missing is that once a player has entered as a courtesy runner he can't be a legal substitute during that half inning so you must not allow that substitution to occur and then you will not have to call the illegal substitute out, and restrict him to the dugout. When the coach says he wants to bat the courtesy runner just removed you say "you can't".

[mikebran]

Ok, I had to read and reread, but once the light came on... I realize that umpire here has done everything properly.. even in consideration of "preventative umpiring". So, poster, you aren't missing anything.

You can courtesy run for a courtesy runner.. so the first part of this thing is OK. Of course, the replacement CR must be legal.. but the umpire does not make that determination at the time. IT is up to the offense. If he errs, he is subject to appeal by the defense and penalties if applicable. Lets assume that Cr1 was OK.. and even Cr2 was OK.

But as someone already said, and we know.. a player who has appeared as a CR cannot hit or pinch run in that half inning. But I still want to say it is not the umpire purview to tell the OFF coach this player is not legal. Let me know if I am wrong by statute.

I'm a bit off, on the DL.. 0 games in 08. Pining for low level JV.. maybe by July 4.

Originally Posted by thumpferee

Courtesy runner comes in for pitcher who is on 1st in the 6th. Next batter singles and courtesy runner is now on 2nd. Coach requests time for a pinch runner to run for the courtesy runner, PU allows the switch. The coach then informs PU he has a sub to enter as the next batter who is the courtesy runner.

After the 1st pitch the opposing coach comes out arguing he is an illegle sub, PU agrees and calls the batter out.

What am I missing here?

[MadCityRef]

Originally Posted by mikebran

You can courtesy run for a courtesy runner.. so the first part of this thing is OK.

No, the sub for the CR is a pinch runner for the pitcher. Can't courtesy-run for the CR.

[DG]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

No, the sub for the CR is a pinch runner for the pitcher. Can't courtesy-run for the CR.

Rule or case book reference please.

[UmpJM]

DG & MadCityRef,

See (2008 Case Book, p.89) CR 10 Situation.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by mikebran

Of course, the replacement CR must be legal.. but the umpire does not make that determination at the time.

But as someone already said, and we know.. a player who has appeared as a CR cannot hit or pinch run in that half inning. But I still want to say it is not the umpire purview to tell the OFF coach this player is not legal. Let me know if I am wrong by statute.

I don't permit courtesy runners who are not legit. No umpire should. I also don't allow courtesy runners to be substitutes in the same half inning.

My partner and I had a situation a couple weeks back. CR was sent in for the pitcher at 1b, ball was made live. Before the pitch the coach called time and wanted to change and have the CR replace the runner on 2b as a sub. We said no. When he was made CR for pitcher and ball was made live he was in the game and could not then be used otherwise in the same half inning. We told him he could sub him later for whomever he wanted, but not in that half inning.

Point is, umpire should not allow improper courtesy runners or improper substitutes. The only illegal sub ejections should be for something I was not told about and therefore did not know.

By statute we announce each substitution. This includes a responsibility to prevent improper or illegal subs if we know one is about to be made.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mikebran

But as someone already said, and we know.. a player who has appeared as a CR cannot hit or pinch run in that half inning. But I still want to say it is not the umpire purview to tell the OFF coach this player is not legal. Let me know if I am wrong by statute.

We should exercise preventative umpiring and not allow illegal substitutions / lin-up changes, etc.

If we miss it and it's then discovered, then enforce the penalties. But try to avoid them in the first place.

[mikebran]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

No, the sub for the CR is a pinch runner for the pitcher. Can't courtesy-run for the CR.

Uh oh. Perhaps the poster wants to "reconsider". A CR for a CR is completely legal. Case book citation already given.

[DG]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

DG & MadCityRef,

See (2008 Case Book, p.89) CR 10 Situation.

JM

Substantiates what I was logically thinking, you can CR for a CR, the second CR is NOT a sub for the pitcher.

Thanks.

[thumpferee]

Thanks UmpJM, thats's what I was looking for.

This happened to a friend of mine. He allowed the switch of the runners, and called the batter out when the D coach brought it to his attention. What I was missing was that a CR can't bat in the same half inning he was CR.

Thanks all!