Dirt and the ball

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Hmm, to remove it would mean to say that the action was illegal.

Show me where it says it is illegal.

Where does it say to issue a warning and take the ball from the pitcher?

Show me the rule that says I cannot.

Or are you just making that up because you think it's the right thing to do even if there is no rules support?

Again, citations. Show me where it says anything I did could not be done.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Show me where it says it is illegal.



Show me the rule that says I cannot.



Again, citations. Show me where it says anything I did could not be done.

By taking the ball away, you're saying that the pitcher can't do it. If she can do it, then you wouldn't be taking the ball away. Where does it say you can issue warnings for actions you deem to be violations?

Interesting how to change things to "show me where it says I can't" now that the tables are turned.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Just what I thought, no rules, just personal opinion. Yet you wanted me to provide citations.

BTW

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Show me where it says it is illegal.

F.Y.I. 1.3.6 renders the ball illegal. However, if a pitch hasn't been thrown with the ball, I get rid of the ball.

Show me the rule that says I cannot.

Again, citations. Show me where it says anything I did could not be done.

10.2.3.f gives the umpire that authority to deal with it and 3.6.1 helps with that

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

F.Y.I. 1.3.6 renders the ball illegal. However, if a pitch hasn't been thrown with the ball, I get rid of the ball.

10.2.3.f gives the umpire that authority to deal with it and 3.6.1 helps with that

So you choose to ignore the rule. How would you handle it if the pitcher clearly rubbed the ball up with dirt, you go out to change the ball, and the offensive coach requests that an illegal pitch be called? By rule, this is an illegal pitch. Would you call it? How would you handle a protest? Are there any other illegal pitches you would choose not to call?

[EsqUmp]

ASA Casebook Play 6.6-3 reads, F5 rubs dirt on the ball and gives it to F1
to pitch. Ruling: Illegal Pitch. If a player continues to place an illegal
substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the game. 6-6A Effect.

Oddly enough, 2012 ASA Umpire Exam Alternate Fast Pitch question 15 reads "A pitcher picks up dirt with the pitching hand and does not wipe the dirt off
before pitching. This is an illegal pitch." The Answer key reads, FALSE. 6-6A
FP & MP.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

ASA Casebook Play 6.6-3 reads, F5 rubs dirt on the ball and gives it to F1
to pitch. Ruling: Illegal Pitch. If a player continues to place an illegal
substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the game. 6-6A Effect.

Oddly enough, 2012 ASA Umpire Exam Alternate Fast Pitch question 15 reads "A pitcher picks up dirt with the pitching hand and does not wipe the dirt off
before pitching. This is an illegal pitch." The Answer key reads, FALSE. 6-6A
FP & MP.

Two different scenarios. In the first, the dirt is being "rubbed" into the ball. In the second, the dirt was only in the hand, and nothing is mentioned about the dirt being rubbed into the ball.

I see no inconsistencies there.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

ASA Casebook Play 6.6-3 reads, F5 rubs dirt on the ball and gives it to F1
to pitch. Ruling: Illegal Pitch. If a player continues to place an illegal
substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the game. 6-6A Effect.

Oddly enough, 2012 ASA Umpire Exam Alternate Fast Pitch question 15 reads "A pitcher picks up dirt with the pitching hand and does not wipe the dirt off
before pitching. This is an illegal pitch." The Answer key reads, FALSE. 6-6A
FP & MP.

That's nice, but the discussion is HS ball.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

ASA Casebook Play 6.6-3 reads, F5 rubs dirt on the ball and gives it to F1 to pitch. Ruling: Illegal Pitch. If a player continues to place an illegal substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the game. 6-6A Effect.

Oddly enough, 2012 ASA Umpire Exam Alternate Fast Pitch question 15 reads "A pitcher picks up dirt with the pitching hand and does not wipe the dirt off
before pitching. This is an illegal pitch." The Answer key reads, FALSE. 6-6A
FP & MP.

It may be odd, but it is a published ASA interpretation and thus the correct answer.

Placing the dirt directly on the ball is interpreted as "applying a foreign substance". Using dirt on the hand is interpreted as using "an approved drying agent" and does not require the pitcher to wipe off her hand before touching the ball.

Having said that...would you not consider rubbing the ball in the dirt as applying a foreign substance?

[azbigdawg]

pitchers HATE brand new slick balls, which is fine.... so what I do with any new balls that havent been rubbed down already.... is rub them down myself ... If I see the pitcher do it, we swap it out for one that is, and I check/rub it myself before returning it to play. No biggie.... no hassle...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

pitchers HATE brand new slick balls, which is fine.... so what I do with any new balls that havent been rubbed down already.... is rub them down myself ... If I see the pitcher do it, we swap it out for one that is, and I check/rub it myself before returning it to play. No biggie.... no hassle...

Don't you know you are not supposed to be reasonable on this topic?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Having said that...would you not consider rubbing the ball in the dirt as applying a foreign substance?

How FOREIGN could it be? We play on it!

[NCASAUmp]

I suppose we could look at it in the same way we look at bat rolling. The end result of rolling is roughly the same as repeated normal use of the bat, but we got there artificially.

Same thing with the ball - she's getting the ball to her desired state by artificial and direct means.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

How FOREIGN could it be? We play on it!

Thank you for illustrating the the ignorant argument I mentioned above.

Is dirt foreign to the field? Of course not.

Is it foreign to the ball? When you open a new ball from the package, is it covered with dirt? Is dirt part of the ball's manufactured characteristics or specifications?

Maybe it would be less confusing if instead of "foreign" we used the term "non-intristic" (then again, maybe not...).

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

ASA Casebook Play 6.6-3 reads, F5 rubs dirt on the ball and gives it to F1
to pitch. Ruling: Illegal Pitch. If a player continues to place an illegal
substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the game. 6-6A Effect.

Oddly enough, 2012 ASA Umpire Exam Alternate Fast Pitch question 15 reads "A pitcher picks up dirt with the pitching hand and does not wipe the dirt off
before pitching. This is an illegal pitch." The Answer key reads, FALSE. 6-6A
FP & MP.

This is actually quite helpful. My partner told me that dirt wasn't a foreign substance in softball. I couldn't find anything in the NFHS rulebook that supported or denied this statement. Since he also does a lot of ASA, I now know where he got the idea and I see how it is probably an incorrect interpretation on his part.

Thank you.

For the others, there is much more to the story. I kept the question simple to get the facts I needed.

Rita

[BretMan]

Since you mentioned ASA, here is the ruling that they published on their website. This was in the "Umpire" section, under the March 2010 "Plays and Clarifications".

Foreign Substances

While traveling around the country to be an instructor at National Umpire Schools, Region Rule clinics or Local Association Umpire Schools it is always interesting to listen to the local umpires talk about rules and rule applications in our great game of Amateur Softball. Throughout the country our umpires ask about rules and plays that come up from time to time. Local umpires talk about rules in a general sense and how those rules apply in our 2010 ASA Umpire Manual Official Rules of Softball. It is refreshing to see umpires dig into the book to understand the intent of a rule and how its application applies to their situations.

One common question from all areas of the country, especially in the game of Fast Pitch but would apply to other games is “By rule, is dirt a foreign substance?” Do you need to wipe off your hand if you pick up dirt and rub it on your hands?” Rule 6, Section 6A. Fast Pitch states that a defensive player shall not at any time during the game be allowed to use a foreign substance upon the ball. Under the supervision and control of the umpire, powder resin and or an approved manufactured drying agent may be used by the pitcher….

Why would we consider dirt, something common to the ground, a” foreign substance”? If a pitcher or any other defensive player picks up dirt and applies it to the ball we say “no”. We do not allow the application of any material to the ball. Players can apply resin to their hand, not to the ball. If a pitcher picks up a handful of dirt or wipes the ground with their hand, then rubs their hands together, there is no foreign substance being transferred. If a defensive player puts dirt in their hand and throws it on the ground, then catches a thrown or batted ball and returns it to the pitcher do we call this illegal? No. Example: If the catcher wipes their hand on the ground before catching the pitch and returns the ball to the pitcher without wiping their hand off do we have a violation of Rule 6? The answer is no. If we do not, then why do umpires from around the country say that the pitcher must wipe their hand off after touching dirt? Our Rule 6 is very specific, it says any “defensive player shall not at any time during a game be allowed to use any foreign substance upon the ball.”

So, if dirt can and has been used as a natural drying agent to dry off the hands, we do not believe it is mandatory for the pitcher to wipe off their hand if they pick up dirt, throw it to the ground or rub it into their hands. We do not allow dirt to be applied directly to the ball just as we do not permit any other substance. Therefore applying dirt to the hand and not wiping the hand off is perfectly legal by ASA Official Rules of Softball.

So, dirt is considered a foreign substance when it is intentionally and purposely applied to the ball by a player. But if the ball gets dirty through normal game play, that isn't illegal. And if a player's hand just happens to be dirty when she touches the ball, that's not a rule violation either.