IP and Missed Base

[argodad]

NFHS.

One of our umpires had this happen last night:

Runners on 2B and 3B. Illegal pitch called by base ump. Pitch is not hit. Plate calls dead ball and awards runners one base. Runner from 3B misses home plate, is still in live ball territory, but is making no move to come back to touch the plate. Defensive coach requests time to ask the BU about the IP call. Passing the plate ump, he asks, "Did you see her miss the plate?"

1. Is this a dead ball appeal?
2. When a runner is advancing on a dead ball, when does she no longer have the right to return and touch the plate?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

NFHS.

One of our umpires had this happen last night:

Runners on 2B and 3B. Illegal pitch called by base ump. Pitch is not hit. Plate calls dead ball and awards runners one base. Runner from 3B misses home plate, is still in live ball territory, but is making no move to come back to touch the plate. Defensive coach requests time to ask the BU about the IP call. Passing the plate ump, he asks, "Did you see her miss the plate?"

1. Is this a dead ball appeal?
2. When a runner is advancing on a dead ball, when does she no longer have the right to return and touch the plate?

I can't speak for NFHS, but speaking ASA...

1 - It would be a dead ball appeal, but not a proper appeal. ASA does not allow the coach to make the appeal, it must come from one of the infielders. However, NFHS rules may differ.
2 - When she enters the dugout. I'd probably signal to the DC to wait a moment before coming out while baserunners are still completing their responsibilities. I might stall a little to see what the runner would do. Call time and brush the plate for a moment, check my line-up card. Just long enough for the runner to either enter the dugout or correct her mistake. It'll only take a few seconds for one thing or the other to happen.

[RKBUmp]

FED does allow the coach to make the appeal, however, asking "Did you see her miss the plate?", I would not consider a proper appeal. Under a dead ball, the base runners must be allowed to complete their base running responsibilities before the appeal can be honored.

As presented, the plate ump would have to tell the coach that if in fact he is making an appeal, it cannot be accepted until the base runner has entered dead ball territory.

[Andy]

1. I would consider that an appeal

2. Not 100% sure, but I believe her opportunity to come back and touch home would end when she entered the dugout. In this case, however, if it was clear to me that she is making no move to come back and touch the plate, I would honor the appeal and rule on it.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

In this case, however, if it was clear to me that she is making no move to come back and touch the plate, I would honor the appeal and rule on it.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Just like a foul ball that's slowly rolling 10 feet from the line, you never know if it could hit a rock and bounce back fair.

I wouldn't make the call until she can no longer correct her mistake.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

1. I would consider that an appeal

I agree.

2. Not 100% sure, but I believe her opportunity to come back and touch home would end when she entered the dugout. In this case, however, if it was clear to me that she is making no move to come back and touch the plate, I would honor the appeal and rule on it.

I don't think you pull the trigger until you have the ammunition in the chamber. IOW, I would probably wait until she left the playing field or something occurred which negates the runner's ability to return before recognizing the coach's request to enter the playing field.

[RadioBlue]

In a JUCO game last year, I had a throw to the plate hit R1's foot which caused her to misstep and miss the plate. As the throw caromed away, a subsequent runner (R2) came around to score. The offensive dugout shouted out to R1 to "touch the plate!!" Meanwhile F2 retrieves the ball and headed toward R1 while R1 heads for the plate. F2 is late getting to R1 and as R1 touches the plate, F2 gives up trying to tag her and returns the ball to F1.

DHC comes out and says, "Isn't the second runner out?" I asked why. She said, "Because she passed the first runner when she missed the plate!" I explained that passing a runner only occurs when a runner physically passes a runner and since that did not occur in this situation, there is no out for passing a runner.

Then, the DHC says, "Well, she did miss the plate, didn't she?"

At this point, I'm trying to figure out the best way to handle the situation. I'm asking myself, "Should I treat her question as a valid appeal?" So, instead of doing so, I just say, "Yes, she did." Then, the coach says, "Okay," and heads back to the dugout. She never asked for an appeal and just accepted my explainations. She must have thought that she could legally retouch despite a succeeding runner scoring.

My thought process at the time was: if she didn't feel the other team did something illegal, I wasn't going to point her in that direction moreso than I already had. I had given her all the information she needed to appeal, but she never used that word. However, ever since, I have questioned whether, or not, I handled the situation correctly. Should I have treated her question as an appeal? Was she just asking for information?

What say the board?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by argodad

"Did you see her miss the plate?"

1. Is this a dead ball appeal?
2. When a runner is advancing on a dead ball, when does she no longer have the right to return and touch the plate?

Regardless of ruleset, asking me what I saw is never an appeal. Even asking me if she missed it (removing 'you see her' replacing with she) is a request for information. Neither is going to get a real response from me. "Blue, she missed the plate" is a minimum. I'd rather, "Blue, we'd like to appeal that number 14 missed the plate."

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

In a JUCO game last year, I had a throw to the plate hit R1's foot which caused her to misstep and miss the plate. As the throw caromed away, a subsequent runner (R2) came around to score. The offensive dugout shouted out to R1 to "touch the plate!!" Meanwhile F2 retrieves the ball and headed toward R1 while R1 heads for the plate. F2 is late getting to R1 and as R1 touches the plate, F2 gives up trying to tag her and returns the ball to F1.

DHC comes out and says, "Isn't the second runner out?" I asked why. She said, "Because she passed the first runner when she missed the plate!" I explained that passing a runner only occurs when a runner physically passes a runner and since that did not occur in this situation, there is no out for passing a runner.

Then, the DHC says, "Well, she did miss the plate, didn't she?"

At this point, I'm trying to figure out the best way to handle the situation. I'm asking myself, "Should I treat her question as a valid appeal?" So, instead of doing so, I just say, "Yes, she did." Then, the coach says, "Okay," and heads back to the dugout. She never asked for an appeal and just accepted my explainations. She must have thought that she could legally retouch despite a succeeding runner scoring.

My thought process at the time was: if she didn't feel the other team did something illegal, I wasn't going to point her in that direction moreso than I already had. I had given her all the information she needed to appeal, but she never used that word. However, ever since, I have questioned whether, or not, I handled the situation correctly. Should I have treated her question as an appeal? Was she just asking for information?

What say the board?

I don't work college ball. Can coaches make an appeal?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't work college ball. Can coaches make an appeal?

Yes, a coach can make a dead ball appeal.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Yes, a coach can make a dead ball appeal.

Now is that by rule? Or by coach's rule?

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Now is that by rule? Or by coach's rule?

YES

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Regardless of ruleset, asking me what I saw is never an appeal. Even asking me if she missed it (removing 'you see her' replacing with she) is a request for information. Neither is going to get a real response from me. "Blue, she missed the plate" is a minimum. I'd rather, "Blue, we'd like to appeal that number 14 missed the plate."

To me, it is all the same. After all, even if the the last manner is that offered, the umpire still has to ask him/herself, "did I see her miss the plate/base?"

There are enough games going on without me pretending to be Alex Trebeck. The coach wouldn't ask the question if s/he wasn't making an appeal.

Coach: Did you see her miss the plate?
Umpire: I did
Coach: Okay, just checking. I'll go back to the dugout now. Thanks.

I understand what you are saying, but why cause such consternation if you know damn well what the coach is asking? If you refuse to answer the coach, s/he is just going to continue asking the same question until you repond and refusing to do so is only going to create more of an issue. I just don't think it is worth the trouble.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Regardless of ruleset, asking me what I saw is never an appeal. Even asking me if she missed it (removing 'you see her' replacing with she) is a request for information. Neither is going to get a real response from me. "Blue, she missed the plate" is a minimum. I'd rather, "Blue, we'd like to appeal that number 14 missed the plate."

Making a coach player "mother may I" is obnoxious and pretentious. If you know what the coach is driving at but are too "type A" to honor it, then at least ask the coach for clarification.

If obvious actions on a live ball appeal are good enough (e.g, line shot back to the pitcher, who throws to 1st base to double up R1 who didn't tag up), then why jerk around with the coach when you know what they are doing?

[NCASAUmp]

If it's absolutely clear to me what they are asking and it's absolutely clear to me which runner and base they're talking about, I would honor the appeal.

Years ago, the defense had to go through a recital in order to appeal a runner leaving early or missing a base. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to do that.

I think I can see where you're going with it, mb, and I believe I understand where you're coming from. You want no doubt that the coach or player is making an appeal on a specific runner. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I'd accept the question as being sufficient for a valid appeal. There's no difference between a player holding the ball and tagging the base asking, "did he leave early?" on a live ball appeal versus saying, "he left early." To me, it's the same thing, even though one was in the form of a question while the other was a statement of fact.