IP and Missed Base

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by argodad

"Did you see her miss the plate?"

1. Is this a dead ball appeal?
2. When a runner is advancing on a dead ball, when does she no longer have the right to return and touch the plate?

Regardless of ruleset, asking me what I saw is never an appeal. Even asking me if she missed it (removing 'you see her' replacing with she) is a request for information. Neither is going to get a real response from me. "Blue, she missed the plate" is a minimum. I'd rather, "Blue, we'd like to appeal that number 14 missed the plate."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Regardless of ruleset, asking me what I saw is never an appeal. Even asking me if she missed it (removing 'you see her' replacing with she) is a request for information. Neither is going to get a real response from me. "Blue, she missed the plate" is a minimum. I'd rather, "Blue, we'd like to appeal that number 14 missed the plate."

To me, it is all the same. After all, even if the the last manner is that offered, the umpire still has to ask him/herself, "did I see her miss the plate/base?"

There are enough games going on without me pretending to be Alex Trebeck. The coach wouldn't ask the question if s/he wasn't making an appeal.

Coach: Did you see her miss the plate?
Umpire: I did
Coach: Okay, just checking. I'll go back to the dugout now. Thanks.

I understand what you are saying, but why cause such consternation if you know damn well what the coach is asking? If you refuse to answer the coach, s/he is just going to continue asking the same question until you repond and refusing to do so is only going to create more of an issue. I just don't think it is worth the trouble.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Regardless of ruleset, asking me what I saw is never an appeal. Even asking me if she missed it (removing 'you see her' replacing with she) is a request for information. Neither is going to get a real response from me. "Blue, she missed the plate" is a minimum. I'd rather, "Blue, we'd like to appeal that number 14 missed the plate."

Making a coach player "mother may I" is obnoxious and pretentious. If you know what the coach is driving at but are too "type A" to honor it, then at least ask the coach for clarification.

If obvious actions on a live ball appeal are good enough (e.g, line shot back to the pitcher, who throws to 1st base to double up R1 who didn't tag up), then why jerk around with the coach when you know what they are doing?

[NCASAUmp]

If it's absolutely clear to me what they are asking and it's absolutely clear to me which runner and base they're talking about, I would honor the appeal.

Years ago, the defense had to go through a recital in order to appeal a runner leaving early or missing a base. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to do that.

I think I can see where you're going with it, mb, and I believe I understand where you're coming from. You want no doubt that the coach or player is making an appeal on a specific runner. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I'd accept the question as being sufficient for a valid appeal. There's no difference between a player holding the ball and tagging the base asking, "did he leave early?" on a live ball appeal versus saying, "he left early." To me, it's the same thing, even though one was in the form of a question while the other was a statement of fact.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If it's absolutely clear to me what they are asking and it's absolutely clear to me which runner and base they're talking about, I would honor the appeal.

Years ago, the defense had to go through a recital in order to appeal a runner leaving early or missing a base. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to do that.

I think I can see where you're going with it, mb, and I believe I understand where you're coming from. You want no doubt that the coach or player is making an appeal on a specific runner. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally, I'd accept the question as being sufficient for a valid appeal. There's no difference between a player holding the ball and tagging the base asking, "did he leave early?" on a live ball appeal versus saying, "he left early." To me, it's the same thing, even though one was in the form of a question while the other was a statement of fact.

Dave,
That was - if I read it correctly - a question asked by a coahc during a dead ball. I copied below:

DHC comes out and says, "Isn't the second runner out?" I asked why. She said, "Because she passed the first runner when she missed the plate!" I explained that passing a runner only occurs when a runner physically passes a runner and since that did not occur in this situation, there is no out for passing a runner.

Then, the DHC says, "Well, she did miss the plate, didn't she?"
That's a question, not a live ball appeal and not a dead ball appeal - yet. I'm likely to ask this coach if an appeal is being made before I answer.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Dave,
That was - if I read it correctly - a question asked by a coahc during a dead ball. I copied below:

DHC comes out and says, "Isn't the second runner out?" I asked why. She said, "Because she passed the first runner when she missed the plate!" I explained that passing a runner only occurs when a runner physically passes a runner and since that did not occur in this situation, there is no out for passing a runner.

Then, the DHC says, "Well, she did miss the plate, didn't she?"
That's a question, not a live ball appeal and not a dead ball appeal - yet. I'm likely to ask this coach if an appeal is being made before I answer.

This is where the difference in how ASA and NFHS handle their appeals can make a difference. In ASA, the coach can't make a dead (and definitely not live) ball appeal on runners missing bases or leaving too soon. As such, this conversation is not nearly as likely to ever happen on the field, nor would it matter if a coach asked this question.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here's where I am at on the initial post. Yes, in NFHS and NCAA rules, that is an appeal; the purpose of the dead ball appeal is to eliminate the hocus-pocus associated with baseball appeals, and establish a basic process where, if we grasp what the coach or player is asking, and it provides the necessary information (which runner, which base), we rule on it. But, until the runner has exhausted any opportunity to legally retouch (meaning, steps into dead ball territory), my response to the coach would be "I cannot legally accept an appeal at this moment".

In ASA, my response would be "Coaches cannot make an appeal on a missed base". By the time they figured that out and had an infielder make the appeal, I suspect the runner would have either remedied, or entered dead ball territory.

[MD Longhorn]

I believe you guys are reading more than I intended into my statement. I was replying to the OP. The question from the coach is in passing as he's finishing up a conversation with BU. I don't think that's nearly as clear as an appeal - and sounds more like fishing. Maybe I'm reading more into the IP than was there. But my intent was not "jacking around with the coach". I would say that if the coach called time, came out of the dugout directly to me and said the same thing, my reaction would be different - this is MUCH more obviously an appeal.