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Old Sat Apr 26, 2003, 01:48pm
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Could not believe I even heard this today. Daughters "minors" softball game, opposing teams batter enters box, with an earing on. Ump sends her to dugout to remove and calls a strike. I ask him bout it(I am a Varsity level baseball ump, and work Football with him). He sez,"Oh, I told em before game thats the way I do it". WOW! I ask our manager bout it, he tells me some of the umps will call the girls out. Bigger WOW! I've got the local supplemental rules as I work the youth league boys, all it sez is "no jewelry allowed". Could not believe this.....
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Old Sat Apr 26, 2003, 02:08pm
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See my frequent comment about OJT not being enough.
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Old Sat Apr 26, 2003, 02:14pm
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I can't speak for LL, but with ASA rules, the umpire in your game was within the rules, especially if he warned both team ahead of time about jewelry.

The batter has 10 sec from "batter up" (spoken or impled) to be in the box, ready to go. The rule is to prevent delay of the game. The team had been warned about jewelry. The batter showed up in the box wearing jewelry. She (or her coach) was unnecessarily delaying the game.

The ASA rule book gives the umpire the latitude to give warnings or call strikes in the situation of a batter not being ready. The ASA rules that apply here are ASA 3-6-F, 7-3-B, 7-3-C-EFFECT, and 7-4-J.

Having said all of that, however, in a "minors" (is that 10U or 12U?) game, I'd simply call time and have the jewlery removed, unless removal became a production.
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Old Sat Apr 26, 2003, 03:05pm
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Smile Obviously a strike.....

I totally agree with the official's call to begin calling strikes.

If the official warned the teams before the game to not wear jewelry, then that was their first and last warning.

When the batter entered the batter's box, she was in violation of the rule of not wearing jewelry. When the umpire asked her to remove the jewelry, she was in the parameter of delay of game which to the umpire's discretion may begin calling strikes. As for calling an out, it is also to the umpire's discretion to call it such a way. When the batter is not in his/her batter's box and the official has said "Play" or point to the pitcher, the umpire will begin calling strikes even if the batter is not there.

I definitely agree with this official. He warned both teams before hand and was simply doing his job and following league rules as an umpire.

roger
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Old Sat Apr 26, 2003, 04:42pm
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I know Rog and this official are technically correct and they are enforcing the rules to call the strike.I just don't think its worth it to have the coach and all the parents in a uproar as soon as the game starts.Thats like starting a basketball game with a technical foul it never leads to smooth game.Our job is to ensure a fairly played seamless as possible game out there and I don't see where waiting a minute for a young girl to remove earring is a problem.I know that almost any pre-game warning we give is not listened to by anybody.My philosophy is if we can fix it without being unfair or hurting the game lets do it and punish the next time.Just my opinion.
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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 07:56am
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Thumbs down Re: Obviously a strike.....

Quote:
Originally posted by clok_strix_3
I totally agree with the official's call to begin calling strikes.

If the official warned the teams before the game to not wear jewelry, then that was their first and last warning.

When the batter entered the batter's box, she was in violation of the rule of not wearing jewelry. When the umpire asked her to remove the jewelry, she was in the parameter of delay of game which to the umpire's discretion may begin calling strikes. As for calling an out, it is also to the umpire's discretion to call it such a way. When the batter is not in his/her batter's box and the official has said "Play" or point to the pitcher, the umpire will begin calling strikes even if the batter is not there.

I definitely agree with this official. He warned both teams before hand and was simply doing his job and following league rules as an umpire.

roger
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Bull crap! Rules interps are acceptable, don't get me wrong here. I do not work softball. But how much of a ****house do you wanna create calling this?!! I've got 10 years of "no jewelry" rules, from 9's to PONY regionals, I have NEVER called a strike for player who delays a few seconds to get the jewelry off timely. Chicken**** call. Oh, I gotta go pick some boogers......
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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 08:03am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
I can't speak for LL, but with ASA rules, the umpire in your game was within the rules, especially if he warned both team ahead of time about jewelry.

The batter has 10 sec from "batter up" (spoken or impled) to be in the box, ready to go. The rule is to prevent delay of the game. The team had been warned about jewelry. The batter showed up in the box wearing jewelry. She (or her coach) was unnecessarily delaying the game.

The ASA rule book gives the umpire the latitude to give warnings or call strikes in the situation of a batter not being ready. The ASA rules that apply here are ASA 3-6-F, 7-3-B, 7-3-C-EFFECT, and 7-4-J.

Having said all of that, however, in a "minors" (is that 10U or 12U?) game, I'd simply call time and have the jewlery removed, unless removal became a production.
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Dakota, 11-12's. BS call IMHO. It went against opposing team, I am wondering bout this. Delay in BB is very seldom called, jewelry should not be the cause....JMHO
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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 08:16am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
I can't speak for LL, but with ASA rules, the umpire in your game was within the rules, especially if he warned both team ahead of time about jewelry.

The batter has 10 sec from "batter up" (spoken or impled) to be in the box, ready to go. The rule is to prevent delay of the game. The team had been warned about jewelry. The batter showed up in the box wearing jewelry. She (or her coach) was unnecessarily delaying the game.

The ASA rule book gives the umpire the latitude to give warnings or call strikes in the situation of a batter not being ready. The ASA rules that apply here are ASA 3-6-F, 7-3-B, 7-3-C-EFFECT, and 7-4-J.

Having said all of that, however, in a "minors" (is that 10U or 12U?) game, I'd simply call time and have the jewlery removed, unless removal became a production.
I saw the subject line and just KNEW I was going to have at least two cents to add here.

To start, pre-game is for the confirmation and exchange of line-ups, to review the ground rules and a coin toss, if applicable. If there are special circumstances, equipment or rules, they to should be reviewed if not previously covered. Telling coaches that no jewelry is allowed is an instruction or direction, not a warning.

I do not believe an umpire should issue warnings to teams in the pre-game conference. Everyone, including myself, likes to quote the rule book, but is there a paragraph suggesting, permitting or instructing umpires to issue "official" preemptive warnings? Of course, there are a couple of you out there thinking, "Well, there isn't one telling us we can't!" and you would be correct. I do not believe we can infer meaning, intent or direction by omission. If we did that, no two umpires would call a game in the same manner.

In NFHS, there is no jewelry, period. However, since Tom raised ASA's rules above, I will address them. Rule 3.6.F gives the umpire the discretion for determining what is dangerous jewelry which allows for the direction to remove whatever the piece may be.

However, the other three are going to be hard to enforce because two insist on the batter being directed by the umpire to the box when in fact, the umpire just directed them out away from the box. The third is only in effect AFTER the batter has entered the box and the umpire has forbidden that to happen. Actually, the only "official" remedy an ASA umpire has is found in 5.4 (forfeit) and I believe that may be a bit extreme in the beginning. There is no doubt that calling strikes is usually a great method to inspire a team's desire to do things as directed, it just isn't worded in the rule book to cover this particular situation.

I would like to think I would handle it by escorting the batter to the manager and tell them, "Coach, your team was instructed that no jewelry will be permitted. Have this jewelry removed from this young lady or give me a subsitute. By the way, coach, since I have now given your team a warning, the next infraction may be an indication that you are failing to control you team which means there is no reason to keep you here. And any further infractions, I may have to declare a forfeit."

Now, I'm not saying I will remember this if it ever comes time to act in this manner , but I'm pretty sure that will result in one of two things. The team will fall in line and there will be no more problems, or you may end up getting rid of the manager earlier than anticipated

Please note that I always used the word "may", not "will", "shall", "going to" or any other word/phrase with a locked-in definitive meaning which leaves you no wiggle room.

I'm not saying that umpires should start tossing people and forfeiting games. I'm just suggesting a friendlier way of handling the situation. Also, I am only talking about the scenerio set forth in this thread, no other situations.

JMHO,

Mike
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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 03:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
I can't speak for LL, but with ASA rules, the umpire in your game was within the rules, especially if he warned both team ahead of time about jewelry.

The batter has 10 sec from "batter up" (spoken or impled) to be in the box, ready to go. The rule is to prevent delay of the game. The team had been warned about jewelry. The batter showed up in the box wearing jewelry. She (or her coach) was unnecessarily delaying the game.

The ASA rule book gives the umpire the latitude to give warnings or call strikes in the situation of a batter not being ready. The ASA rules that apply here are ASA 3-6-F, 7-3-B, 7-3-C-EFFECT, and 7-4-J.

Having said all of that, however, in a "minors" (is that 10U or 12U?) game, I'd simply call time and have the jewlery removed, unless removal became a production.
I saw the subject line and just KNEW I was going to have at least two cents to add here.

To start, pre-game is for the confirmation and exchange of line-ups, to review the ground rules and a coin toss, if applicable. If there are special circumstances, equipment or rules, they to should be reviewed if not previously covered. Telling coaches that no jewelry is allowed is an instruction or direction, not a warning.

I do not believe an umpire should issue warnings to teams in the pre-game conference. Everyone, including myself, likes to quote the rule book, but is there a paragraph suggesting, permitting or instructing umpires to issue "official" preemptive warnings? Of course, there are a couple of you out there thinking, "Well, there isn't one telling us we can't!" and you would be correct. I do not believe we can infer meaning, intent or direction by omission. If we did that, no two umpires would call a game in the same manner.

In NFHS, there is no jewelry, period. However, since Tom raised ASA's rules above, I will address them. Rule 3.6.F gives the umpire the discretion for determining what is dangerous jewelry which allows for the direction to remove whatever the piece may be.

However, the other three are going to be hard to enforce because two insist on the batter being directed by the umpire to the box when in fact, the umpire just directed them out away from the box. The third is only in effect AFTER the batter has entered the box and the umpire has forbidden that to happen. Actually, the only "official" remedy an ASA umpire has is found in 5.4 (forfeit) and I believe that may be a bit extreme in the beginning. There is no doubt that calling strikes is usually a great method to inspire a team's desire to do things as directed, it just isn't worded in the rule book to cover this particular situation.

I would like to think I would handle it by escorting the batter to the manager and tell them, "Coach, your team was instructed that no jewelry will be permitted. Have this jewelry removed from this young lady or give me a subsitute. By the way, coach, since I have now given your team a warning, the next infraction may be an indication that you are failing to control you team which means there is no reason to keep you here. And any further infractions, I may have to declare a forfeit."

Now, I'm not saying I will remember this if it ever comes time to act in this manner , but I'm pretty sure that will result in one of two things. The team will fall in line and there will be no more problems, or you may end up getting rid of the manager earlier than anticipated

Please note that I always used the word "may", not "will", "shall", "going to" or any other word/phrase with a locked-in definitive meaning which leaves you no wiggle room.

I'm not saying that umpires should start tossing people and forfeiting games. I'm just suggesting a friendlier way of handling the situation. Also, I am only talking about the scenerio set forth in this thread, no other situations.

JMHO,

Mike
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Mike, VERY well put! Your wording is gonna be printed and used!! I was at my Assc fearless leaders house this morning to pick up games check, we discussed this. True to ASA rule, invocitng the "delay ruling", ump was correct. He may call strike for delay, but, preventive officiating should prevail, or just some common sence. But THANK YOU for a very descriptive description......cheers....chris
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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 11:48pm
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First, at the end of my post, I explained how I would handle it. The rest was addressing the claim that the umpire was making up rules. He was not (assumping LL has similar rules to ASA regarding delay of game and jewelry).

He was, however, being a bit of a hard case about it. Why was not explained.

Perhaps his "preemptive warning" was not preemptive at all, but preventative. Perhaps he had seen players warming up wearing jewelry and so informed both coaches that the jewelry would have to go, and he would not delay the game to have it removed later - batters better not enter to box wearing jewelry; fielders better not enter the playing field wearing jewelry.

While hard case, that is understandable and within the rules. Why a coach would proceed to ignore such a warning is a mystery, too.

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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 11:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by chris s
Dakota, 11-12's. BS call IMHO. It went against opposing team, I am wondering bout this. Delay in BB is very seldom called, jewelry should not be the cause....JMHO
OK which is it? A BS call or making up rules? It is, as I explained, not how I would handle it, and a bit hard nosed. I call a lot of 12U rec ball, similar players and atmosphere, I imagine, to LL. I would not even consider jumping right to calling strikes in a case like this.

If, as I speculated above, the umpire was attempting to prevent delay / problems after having seen girls warm up wearing jewlery, then his annoyance is understandable. If both teams were reminded of the jewelry rule, but one chose to ignore the reminder, well, who is to blame for even having the girl enter the box still wearing jewelry?

Making this call in this situation, it seems to me, would cause more rukus than it would help the game move along - after all, the purpose of the no jewelry rule is safety, and the purpose of the 10 sec rule is stopping delay. Going right to the penalty in this situation is not good game management, IMO. None of that, however, means he was making up rules.

Baseball is a different game with different traditions regarding delay and different rules.
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Old Mon Apr 28, 2003, 06:04am
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Delay???

Doesn't the "delay" rule require the ball to be put in play?

How can a "penalty strike" be called if time has been called to issue a jewelry warning?
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Old Mon Apr 28, 2003, 06:11am
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Re: Delay???

Quote:
Originally posted by SC Ump
Doesn't the "delay" rule require the ball to be put in play?

How can a "penalty strike" be called if time has been called to issue a jewelry warning?
No, it does not require the ball to be put in play.
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Old Mon Apr 28, 2003, 06:18am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
First, at the end of my post, I explained how I would handle it. The rest was addressing the claim that the umpire was making up rules. He was not (assumping LL has similar rules to ASA regarding delay of game and jewelry).

He was, however, being a bit of a hard case about it. Why was not explained.

Perhaps his "preemptive warning" was not preemptive at all, but preventative. Perhaps he had seen players warming up wearing jewelry and so informed both coaches that the jewelry would have to go, and he would not delay the game to have it removed later - batters better not enter to box wearing jewelry; fielders better not enter the playing field wearing jewelry.

While hard case, that is understandable and within the rules. Why a coach would proceed to ignore such a warning is a mystery, too.

Tom,

Please note my difference between direction and preemptive warning.

Okay, ladies, there will not be any jewelry allowed in today's game. Have all your players remove any visible jewelry.

versus

Okay, ladies, I don't allow any jewelry in my games. Consider this your first and only warning.


And, yes, I have heard umpires offer these types of warnings about numerous rules from throwing a bat, language, helmet-removal, jewelry to discussing a play.

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Old Mon Apr 28, 2003, 07:27am
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I think preemptive warnings are poor umpiring and poorer game management. Issuing warnings (as opposed to reminders or directions) during pregame so you can penalize immediately ignores the rules that something must happen before the warning can be issued. It also makes the ruling a "ground rule" and so has less authenticity than a book rule, even if you don't supersede a book rule. It is also perceived as laziness or attempting to get ejections early and shorten the game.

It might be technically permissible, but calling strikes for delay in situations like this is outside the purpose and spirit of the delay rule and we are supposed to understand that. Actually, a player can be ejected for refusing an order after a no jewelry reminder is issued, but that is only to eliminate a stalemate, not to penalize a minor infraction which is being corrected.

As to "some of the umps will call the girls out", that's really ridiculous. Makes me wonder why the coaches haven't checked the rules and pointed them out to the umpires.
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