Fly Ball Coverage SNAFU

[BretMan]

It was almost a year ago to the day, in a fall tournament, that a similar breakdown in fly ball coverage bit me in the butt. This one got pretty exciting...

I'm on the plate. My base umpire was a fairly new guy with terrible mechanics. His usual move on fly balls to the outfield was to just stand there and watch the ball, completely ignoring the batter-runner or any other runners he was responsible for.

As horrible as that is, it might not get you in trouble 99% of the time. It's that 1 in a 100 that's going to kill you!

We have a runner on second, one out, base umpire is in "C". Batter hits a sinking line drive to straightaway center. F8 comes running in to try a shoestring catch.

I get into the infield just short of the pitcher's plate. Base umpire just stands there in "C", watching the ball...like he's been doing the entire game.

To me, it looks like a trap and I immediately give a safe signal and loudly shout, "No catch!".

Simultaneousy, the base umpire signals a catch and yells, "Out!". The runner was in between second and third. F8 throws it to second, second base is tagged, the BU calls another out and the runner begins walking off the field. Somebody yells for her to get back on base and she does, never having been tagged herself.

Defensive coach is quickly out of the dugout asking me what happened. I told him that I had a trapped ball, no catch. He's complaining- rightfully so- that the base umpire signalled an out. I told him that it was the plate umpire's call, I did not have a catch and that the runner was safe at second.

He's climbing me bad, and his assistant is now chiming in (along with the entire bench and all of their fans). I figure that I'm going to let them vent a little bit, within reason, since an umpire error was at the heart of the confusion. But I finally get them settled down and we're about to get the next batter going.

That's when my partner jogs in tells me that this was his call because "he was closer to the play". I was probably still a little amped up, since I had just taken all of the heat for his double call, so I was a little short with him. What I basically said was, "Fly balls to the outfield are the plate umpire's call, unless you go out. Standing still in "C" position is not going out! If you want to go out, then get out to the outfield. That ball was hit all the way to the centerfielder and if you were going out you should have at least made it to the outfield grass! And, if you did go out, then you shouldn't have been calling the tag play at second, because once you go out, you stay out, and the infield reverts to one-man mechanics".

The guy gets all offended and won't speak to me the rest of the game. After the game, I tried to smooth things over. Before mentioning this play, I pointed out some of the good calls he made and talked about those. He's still acting pissed. Then, before getting into the fly ball play, I apologized to him if I seemed a little ticked when I talked to him during the game, but said that he had to realize I just had two coaches giving me hell because he made a call that wasn't his to make. I really didn't want any hard feelings, so I apologized again for my tone. He just grumbled something like, "Whatever", and walked away.

As the next game is getting started, off in the distance, I can see him talking with the UIC, who was stationed just beyond the outfield fence.

My next game ends, and the UIC comes over to me. He tells me that my partner was pretty mad! Then he tells me that he was watching the play and that he told the base umpire he had no business making that call while standing in the "C" position and that it was the plate umpire's call all the way. And, he also told me that from his angle on the play he thinks it was a catch!

I told him that I can handle that. I moved out where I was supposed to be, got the best view of the play I could get and made the best call that I could. But what I couldn't handle was another umpire poaching the call he had no business making.

[jr131981]

i love it, in general, when someone messes up and when confronted with the news they messed up, instead of apologizing, they get angry.

[BretMan]

The next game after this one, I had a new partner come in. With the events of the previous game fresh in my mind, and with a little time to spare between games, I figured that we'd have the most thorough pre-game possible.

The next guy was just as green as the first guy. I had never met him before, so I asked him about his experience doing softball. He tells me that he's pretty new to it...but for the past three years he has been doing a lot of Little League Baseball!

At least the guy was open to suggestions and seemed enthusiastic about being out there. So, our pre-game was pretty in-depth. When we got into fly ball coverages, I tried to explain every possible scenario. I told him that if he wanted to go out on a fly ball, he should make it obvious that he's going out, as opposed to just standing in one spot and watching the ball. I also told him to yell something like, "I'm going!", or "One-man!" if he did go out. We also covered, among many other things, who has "fair/foul" responsibility and when.

First batter of the game...batter hits a blooper down the right field line. Base umpire doesn't budge from the "A" position, says nothing, makes no movement toward the outfield, ignores the batter-runner heading to first and then makes a strong "foul!" call as the ball lands a few feet foul.

So much for the thorough pre-game...

After the first inning, he comes in to talk to me and says he has a question. He wants to know when it is okay for a runner to leave her base on a pitch and asks, "Is it when the ball reaches the front of home plate?".

[jr131981]

man, sounds like the training for your assn in your area could be a tad better.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by BretMan

We have a runner on second, one out, base umpire is in "C". Batter hits a sinking line drive to straightaway center. F8 comes running in to try a shoestring catch.

I get into the infield just short of the pitcher's plate. Base umpire just stands there in "C", watching the ball...like he's been doing the entire game.

Where could you have gone to get a better view of this catch/no-catch?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by SRW

Where could you have gone to get a better view of this catch/no-catch?

Maybe off to the side more, to get a little more of a "cross view" instead of being straight on. As it was, I was about even with the left side of the pitcher's circle and maybe 3/4 of the way to the pitcher's plate. That's about as far as I could get before I had to get set to make the call.

Our UIC was out in the right field corner...much farther away, but he had an almost 90 degree angle across the path of the ball and the path of the fielder. He said that he had a catch on the play...and also felt that it was tough to get a better angle when coming out from behind the plate.

Anyhow...we survived this game and made it to the next day. The next day I'm scheduled to work with a very experienced umpire who has done college ball, whom I have never worked with before. We are doing our pre-game and the subject of fly ball coverage comes up.

This is when he tells me that (in two-man) an umpire should NEVER go out on a fly ball unless he has started in the "A" position.

I questioned that. I said that as a practical matter, you might want to avoid going out if you're in "B" or "C", but that it is a permissible mechanic.

He was adamant that "our umpire manual (ASA) says to NEVER go out from "B" or "C".

Not wanting to get off on the wrong foot, I told him that I would not go out from those positions today...but that we both should probably double check our umpire manuals after our games were finished.

[KJUmp]

You mentioned that he said he does college.
Did he skip over Pg.266 of the Manual that addresses the proper coverage in the two man system when the BU chases from B or C?

From you first game...I agree that the shoestring catch by F8 coming straight in is one of the toughest calls for the PU to get an angle on and to see clearly.

[BretMan]

We were doing an ASA game, so I would hope that any discusion of "our" umpire manual would be about the ASA manual.

When I said that I didn't think he was right, he immediately dug in his heels and stated again that "it's in our umpire manual". Then he told me that I'd better check with "Kathy" (not her real name), our local UIC...as if dropping her name somehow made him more correct.

I could see this was going downhill fast, so I dropped it and just told him I wouldn't go out from "B" or "C". Then I smiled and changed the subject to our coverages at third base...

[NCASAUmp]

Didn't ASA's own video show the BU go out from B?

I once had a UIC tell me I should never be any closer than 18 feet on ANY call, PERIOD. That included tag plays. He was adamant that it was in the Umpire Manual.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Didn't ASA's own video show the BU go out from B?

I once had a UIC tell me I should never be any closer than 18 feet on ANY call, PERIOD. That included tag plays. He was adamant that it was in the Umpire Manual.

We all know that's not in the manual... but it's not a horrible bit of advice. Angle is more important than distance, and TOO close can often be a problem. 6 yards is really not that far from a play and lets you see everything (most of the time). Closer and you're cutting down on periphery --- not always bad, but often bad.

That said ... I think PU would have to move backward without looking to reach 18 feet on the typical PB/play at the plate - not something I'd think a UIC should be advocating!

PS ... ANY call? Hope he calls his balls and strikes from less than 18 feet away!!!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We all know that's not in the manual... but it's not a horrible bit of advice. Angle is more important than distance, and TOO close can often be a problem. 6 yards is really not that far from a play and lets you see everything (most of the time). Closer and you're cutting down on periphery --- not always bad, but often bad.

That said ... I think PU would have to move backward without looking to reach 18 feet on the typical PB/play at the plate - not something I'd think a UIC should be advocating!

PS ... ANY call? Hope he calls his balls and strikes from less than 18 feet away!!!

It's not terrible advice, but claiming that 18' on tag plays is found in the manual? No, it's not.

I'll put it in more specific context. He asked me how far away I should be on a play. I asked, "tag or force?" He said, "doesn't matter." I responded, "well, the book says 10-12 feet on a tag, and 18-21 feet on a force."

He said, "no, the book says no less than 18' feet on all plays."

I understand if that's his perspective, and from that moment on, that's exactly what I gave him for the rest of the tourney. But claiming that the book backs him up? No. Not good.

Coincidentally, I was the second person to whom he'd asked that question, and I was the second person who gave the exact same answer. That should have told him something.

[DaveASA/FED]

You know that's when I pull out the book and play stupid. Sorry mr/mrs UIC I am confused. After we talked the other day I went back and double checked the book and here on page XX it says 12-15 feet on a tag play, you were telling me at least 18 feet....I'm confused can you go over this again? I'm missing something.

That way you don't even tell your UIC they are crazy, but you get them into the book (and some of them need it as much or MORE than the umpires they are directing) and also gets your point accross without being a smarta** well that is if you do it right, takes a little acting to seem honest in the 'trying to learn' approach and not the here it is in the book moron that it can come accross as.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I wonder if this umpire confused this with the 18'-21' beyond 1B when working the line with how far one should set up for a play.

Unfortunately, it is not unusual for people who don't routinely attend clinics to hear somethings. If they do not follow up, it seems some of these people get a number in their head and hang their hat on it, right or wrong.

[BretMan]

At a clinic last year, one of the instructors chided me because when I was in the "A" position and walking the line, I took two steps instead of one. He actually made a big deal out of it, stopping the drill we were doing and pulling me aside so that he could show everyone "the right way".

At another clinic, we were doing plate work. I set up with my eyes at the top of the strike zone. One instructor told me that I was setting up too low. Later that day, another instructor told me I was setting up too high!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

You know that's when I pull out the book and play stupid. Sorry mr/mrs UIC I am confused. After we talked the other day I went back and double checked the book and here on page XX it says 12-15 feet on a tag play, you were telling me at least 18 feet....I'm confused can you go over this again? I'm missing something.

That way you don't even tell your UIC they are crazy, but you get them into the book (and some of them need it as much or MORE than the umpires they are directing) and also gets your point accross without being a smarta** well that is if you do it right, takes a little acting to seem honest in the 'trying to learn' approach and not the here it is in the book moron that it can come accross as.

I wasn't going to sweat it, as I knew I wouldn't see him again. I just hope I planted the seed in his head that multiple umpires might not be wrong when they're all saying "10-12 feet on a tag play."