Nfhs cr snafu

[JEL]

Easiest is to cut and paste the e-mail----This is how it went;

>>>At the top of the 5th inning, the visiting team substituted for the catcher and she reached base. A courtesy runner took her place on base. At the bottom of the inning, the home coach pointed out that she didn’t think this was allowed since the player was not the catcher. I mistakenly told her that since she had been entered as a substitute in the catcher’s position the courtesy runner could run for her. Since the point was not raised while the courtesy runner was still on base it was a moot point and hopefully I would have checked with my partner, but I was wrong on this one. Rule 8-9 Articles 1 and 2 state that “The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher at any time…In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher…thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense.”<<<


Of course preventive umpiring would (should) have caught this, but what if any recourse or penalty could be applied when the home questioned this?

Would there be an un-reported sub somewhere? Did the (improper) CR become a sub once she took first base? If the new catcher comes in on defense is she now an unreported sub? (if CR becomes sub).

OR, Do you just tell the home coach it is to late to fix, you should have told me sooner?

[RadioBlue]

2-57-3 states that a player who violates the CR rule is an illegal substitute. Rule 3-4 will be your guide for determining what penalties should apply.

Of course preventive umpiring would (should) have caught this, but what if any recourse or penalty could be applied when the home questioned this?

While it's a little unclear in your OP, it appears the VC put her at 1B as a CR. Your right in saying the home team was too late in bringing this to your attention. Had they said something while the runner was on base, the CR is an illegal sub and is restricted for the remainder of the game. (3-4-1c)

Would there be an un-reported sub somewhere?

No. The VC put her out there as the CR. Of course preventative umpiring dictates if we as umpires know a player can't CR for the "new" catcher, we prevent it. But you can't "retroactively" determine she was actually a sub.

Did the (improper) CR become a sub once she took first base? If the new catcher comes in on defense is she now an unreported sub? (if CR becomes sub).

No. See above.

Do you just tell the home coach it is to late to fix, you should have told me sooner?

Yep.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

2-57-3 states that a player who violates the CR rule is an illegal substitute. Rule 3-4 will be your guide for determining what penalties should apply.

While it's a little unclear in your OP, it appears the VC put her at 1B as a CR. Your right in saying the home team was too late in bringing this to your attention. Had they said something while the runner was on base, the CR is an illegal sub and is restricted for the remainder of the game. (3-4-1c)


No. The VC put her out there as the CR. Of course preventative umpiring dictates if we as umpires know a player can't CR for the "new" catcher, we prevent it. But you can't "retroactively" determine she was actually a sub.


No. See above.

Yep.

If the player mistakenly called a CR was put on base, isn't she then simply a substitute? When she was replaced with the originaly starter, wasn't this just simply an unreported substitute?
Have to admit, I'm not near a book, but I thought the violating CR statement refers to using a player not eligible to be a CR (such as a different player currently in the game or a sub who has already been in the game)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

If the player mistakenly called a CR was put on base, isn't she then simply a substitute? When she was replaced with the originaly starter, wasn't this just simply an unreported substitute?
Have to admit, I'm not near a book, but I thought the violating CR statement refers to using a player not eligible to be a CR (such as a different player currently in the game or a sub who has already been in the game)

Or any other violation of the rule.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Or any other violation of the rule.

Care to expand?

Of course preventive umpiring would (should) have caught this,
So really this would not have happend in either of our games ;-)


I'm still not sure that this is an illegal player situation or an unannounced substitution (actually 2) since (I am assuming) that the player who came in to run was an eligible substitute.
So when she came in, she was not a CR, but a sub... (would you call that the 1st unreported??) and when the next 1/2 inning came in and the other player re-entered, she was an unreported sub....

Without further guidance, that's my ruling on the field.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Assuming the coach told the umpire about the CR, it isn't unreported, it just wasn't reported properly

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Assuming the coach told the umpire about the CR, it isn't unreported, it just wasn't reported properly

I'll buy that, but bringing the original player back after the half inning was over WAS unreported (and in NFHS a warning) - (I mis-wrote actually 2, when I really meant possibly 2 - and that was just to cober those who would claim that the mis-reported would equal unreported)

But bottom line, are you in agreement that the misreported use of the term CR was not a problem as long as the legal substitution involving those players is viable?

[Az.Ump]

Hugo,

Rule 8.9 ART.2 . . . In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense (one pitch). Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base) in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.

This was violated so,
PENALTYArts. 1 through 6) Illegal substitute as in 3-4

c. a courtesy runner if that player has violated the courtesy-runner rule.
PENALTY: (Art. 1) Restricted to the dugout/bench for the remainder of the
game. (Art. 1a, c) She is also called out.

Paul

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

But bottom line, are you in agreement that the misreported use of the term CR was not a problem as long as the legal substitution involving those players is viable?

I don't believe so. I'm sure other opinions might be out there.

In this play, I'm envisioning the HC saying, "Time, blue. Courtesy runner for my catcher." That's the way it happens around here.

Hopefully, I'd catch that at that moment and explain to the HC that's not a move that's allowed and explain why.

Now, if I fail to recognize the situation and allow the courtesy runner, the opposing HC has to bring this to my attention while the illegal sub is on base. Just because she's a viable sub (all eligible courtesy runners are viable subs because, by rule, they are someone who has not yet been in the game), doesn't mean I can change that runner's status just because the opposing coach has rightfully caught his/her opponents in an illegal substitution. I'm not going to bail out a coach and turn that into an unreported substitution situation.

Additionally, I'm not going to take a lot of guff from the offending HC if I fail to prevent this situation through preventative umpiring. They need to know the rule, too.

90% of substitutions in HS ball around here start off, "Can I ... ?"

[Dakota]

By rule, a violation of the CR rule is an illegal player (3-4-1-c). Also by rule (3-4-2), an illegal offensive player must be "discovered" before the next pitch. So, while this was an illegal player (violation of the CR rule), it is too late for any penalty to apply.

Play on.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

By rule, a violation of the CR rule is an illegal player (3-4-1-c). Also by rule (3-4-2), an illegal offensive player must be "discovered" before the next pitch. So, while this was an illegal player (violation of the CR rule), it is too late for any penalty to apply.

Play on.

3-4-2-b and c

(b) After the illegal runner "advances, scores, or causes a play to be made that causes another runner to advance or score", if before the next pitch after ANY of those, runner is out, play is nullified, all outs made stand, players not out return to base occupied TOP, illegal runner is restricted.

(c) After the illegal runner "advances, scores, or causes a play to be made that causes another runner to advance or score", if after the next pitch after ANY of those, all play stands, but if still on base, runner is out and restricted; if not on base, illegal substitute is still restricted.

No matter when discovered, even next inning, if discovered (and verified on lineup), illegal substitute is restricted and ineligible in any capacity; AND, while unstated, the starter has burned a re-entry (if you acknowledge starter left, and not for a courtesy runner or blood rule, it takes a re-entry to return).