D3k... Again!

MD Longhorn · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 07:47am

Also ... please avoid the use of the term abandonment. It has a very specific meaning when applied to causing an out - and 95% of the umpires who want to rule someone "out for abandonment" have no idea when it applies - in addition, you can likely go your entire umpiring career and not have "Abandonment" ever actually happen.

MNBlue · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 08:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Also ... please avoid the use of the term abandonment. It has a very specific meaning when applied to causing an out - and 95% of the umpires who want to rule someone "out for abandonment" have no idea when it applies - in addition, you can likely go your entire umpiring career and not have "Abandonment" ever actually happen.

Good job teasing the masses - care to expound?

RKBUmp · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 09:02am

From NCAA softball rules.

12.8.5 If the ball is live and a runner, after reaching base safely, abandons
her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout,
believing she was put out or that another batter/runner was put out to end
the inning).

CecilOne · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 09:18am

But, in HS, s/he must leave live-ball territory to be out.

Also, unlike a coach at a National said, the batter can not be out for leaving live-ball territory, while still at bat. Abandonment only applies to BR & R.

AtlUmpSteve · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

But, in HS, s/he must leave live-ball territory to be out.

Also, unlike a coach at a National said, the batter can not be out for leaving live-ball territory, while still at bat. Abandonment only applies to BR & R.

Partially true (not referring to coach, totally true).

In 8-2-4, Batter-Runner is out when "she fails to advance to first base AND enters the team area". So, correct in the OP situation.

But, in 8-6-22, The Runner is out when "she abandons a base, enters a team area OR leaves the field of play".

Case Play 8-6-22 Situation B: "B2 hits a grounder to F6 whose throw to F3 is not in time to retire B2. However, B2, who has not been declared out, leaves the baseline (My note: like THAT has anything to do with it) and heads for the dugout. RULING: B2 may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of B2 to be considered abandoning her effort to run the bases."

So, before reaching first, the BR has not abandoned an attempt until/unless she leaves live ball territory, but after reaching first, any effort judged to be abandonment by the umpire can be an out. Does anyone think there is any rationale or reasonable consistency here??

CecilOne · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Partially true (not referring to coach, totally true).

but after reaching first, any effort judged to be abandonment by the umpire can be an out. Does anyone think there is any rationale or reasonable consistency here??

Doesn't this "The Runner is out when "she abandons a base, enters a team area OR leaves the field of play"." mean having to do both, even without the word "and", because of the conjunctive punctuation?
IOW, the R can not "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play" without leaving (abandons) the base.

We all know the national education body is weak on writing/editing.

AtlUmpSteve · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Doesn't this "The Runner is out when "she abandons a base, enters a team area OR leaves the field of play"." mean having to do both, even without the word "and", because of the conjunctive punctuation?
IOW, the R can not "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play" without leaving (abandons) the base.

We all know the national education body is weak on writing/editing.

Wish I could agree, but the case play doesn't have the runner doing either of the "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play", but says can be declared out.

Dakota · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 03:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

But, in HS, s/he must leave live-ball territory to be out. ...

Not true.

NFHS Case Play 8.6.22 (2010)
8.6.22 SITUATION A: B1 reaches first safely. In her overrun, she breaks for second and then "gives up" far away from the baseline. RULING: If B1 is attempting to reach a base, she must be tagged out, but the fielder is not expected to chase her into the outfield. In the outlined case, B1 is out for giving up. (8-4-2; 8-6-2)

MD Longhorn · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

From NCAA softball rules.

12.8.5 If the ball is live and a runner, after reaching base safely, abandons
her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout,
believing she was put out or that another batter/runner was put out to end
the inning).

Great way to confuse the issue.

Guess I have to add: If you're working NFHS ball, don't refer to the NCAA softball rules.

MD Longhorn · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 19, 2011, 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Good job teasing the masses - care to expound?

Sure - so many umpires saw the word abandonment in their rulebook in passing ... and have applied their own definition to it. Simply wandering off your base or some direction one might not normally expect is NOT abandonment in NFHS. We've all seen or heard about an umpire who ruled a runner out for abandonment when she did something odd thinking she was out or the inning was over - but not actually breaking any rule.

You have to actually LEAVE the field of play (or, I suppose, go play defense) to have abandoned a base.