D3k... Again!

[bbsbvb83]

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseam in previous threads, but most of those discuss ASA. NFHS rules only, please:

First batter of the game. Uncaught third strike. BR turns around and takes five steps towards her team's third base dugout. All defensive and offensive players and coaches are oblivious to the situation. At this point, should she be declared out for abandonment, or should the home plate umpire wait until she enters the dugout?

[RKBUmp]

FED case play 8-1-1

F2 drops strike 3 with 2 outs . B3 starts toward the dugout but F2 does not throw to 1st. B3 then makes a quick dash to first. Ruling: If F2 does not throw to first, there is a chance B3 could reach first safely. However, B3 should be declared out if (1) she entered dead ball territory; (2) she did not reach the base by the time of the next pitch; or (3) the half inning ended because all infielders left the diamond.

[MD Longhorn]

Also ... please avoid the use of the term abandonment. It has a very specific meaning when applied to causing an out - and 95% of the umpires who want to rule someone "out for abandonment" have no idea when it applies - in addition, you can likely go your entire umpiring career and not have "Abandonment" ever actually happen.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Also ... please avoid the use of the term abandonment. It has a very specific meaning when applied to causing an out - and 95% of the umpires who want to rule someone "out for abandonment" have no idea when it applies - in addition, you can likely go your entire umpiring career and not have "Abandonment" ever actually happen.

Good job teasing the masses - care to expound?

[RKBUmp]

From NCAA softball rules.

12.8.5 If the ball is live and a runner, after reaching base safely, abandons
her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout,
believing she was put out or that another batter/runner was put out to end
the inning).

[CecilOne]

But, in HS, s/he must leave live-ball territory to be out.

Also, unlike a coach at a National said, the batter can not be out for leaving live-ball territory, while still at bat. Abandonment only applies to BR & R.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

But, in HS, s/he must leave live-ball territory to be out.

Also, unlike a coach at a National said, the batter can not be out for leaving live-ball territory, while still at bat. Abandonment only applies to BR & R.

Partially true (not referring to coach, totally true).

In 8-2-4, Batter-Runner is out when "she fails to advance to first base AND enters the team area". So, correct in the OP situation.

But, in 8-6-22, The Runner is out when "she abandons a base, enters a team area OR leaves the field of play".

Case Play 8-6-22 Situation B: "B2 hits a grounder to F6 whose throw to F3 is not in time to retire B2. However, B2, who has not been declared out, leaves the baseline (My note: like THAT has anything to do with it) and heads for the dugout. RULING: B2 may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of B2 to be considered abandoning her effort to run the bases."

So, before reaching first, the BR has not abandoned an attempt until/unless she leaves live ball territory, but after reaching first, any effort judged to be abandonment by the umpire can be an out. Does anyone think there is any rationale or reasonable consistency here??

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

FED case play 8-1-1

F2 drops strike 3 with 2 outs . B3 starts toward the dugout but F2 does not throw to 1st. B3 then makes a quick dash to first. Ruling: If F2 does not throw to first, there is a chance B3 could reach first safely. However, B3 should be declared out if (1) she entered dead ball territory; (2) she did not reach the base by the time of the next pitch; or (3) the half inning ended because all infielders left the diamond.

And, while I am ragging on NFHS Case Book plays, here's another idiotic (IMO) ruling. B3 is out in (1); because the rule says if she enters dead ball territory she is out.

But in (2) IF SHE ISN'T PUT OUT, ON A BASE, OR OFF THE FIELD, HOW THE HELL CAN THERE BE A NEXT PITCH??

And in (3), the solution is for the defense to leave the field without effecting the third out, so THAT makes her out and ends the inning??

JMO, but these are embarrassing.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Partially true (not referring to coach, totally true).

but after reaching first, any effort judged to be abandonment by the umpire can be an out. Does anyone think there is any rationale or reasonable consistency here??

Doesn't this "The Runner is out when "she abandons a base, enters a team area OR leaves the field of play"." mean having to do both, even without the word "and", because of the conjunctive punctuation?
IOW, the R can not "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play" without leaving (abandons) the base.

We all know the national education body is weak on writing/editing.

[NCASAUmp]

Reported.

This is ridiculous, guys.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

From NCAA softball rules.

12.8.5 If the ball is live and a runner, after reaching base safely, abandons
her base (for example, obviously heads toward her position or the dugout,
believing she was put out or that another batter/runner was put out to end
the inning).

Great way to confuse the issue.

Guess I have to add: If you're working NFHS ball, don't refer to the NCAA softball rules.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Doesn't this "The Runner is out when "she abandons a base, enters a team area OR leaves the field of play"." mean having to do both, even without the word "and", because of the conjunctive punctuation?
IOW, the R can not "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play" without leaving (abandons) the base.

We all know the national education body is weak on writing/editing.

Wish I could agree, but the case play doesn't have the runner doing either of the "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play", but says can be declared out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Good job teasing the masses - care to expound?

Sure - so many umpires saw the word abandonment in their rulebook in passing ... and have applied their own definition to it. Simply wandering off your base or some direction one might not normally expect is NOT abandonment in NFHS. We've all seen or heard about an umpire who ruled a runner out for abandonment when she did something odd thinking she was out or the inning was over - but not actually breaking any rule.

You have to actually LEAVE the field of play (or, I suppose, go play defense) to have abandoned a base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And, while I am ragging on NFHS Case Book plays, here's another idiotic (IMO) ruling. B3 is out in (1); because the rule says if she enters dead ball territory she is out.

But in (2) IF SHE ISN'T PUT OUT, ON A BASE, OR OFF THE FIELD, HOW THE HELL CAN THERE BE A NEXT PITCH??

And in (3), the solution is for the defense to leave the field without effecting the third out, so THAT makes her out and ends the inning??

JMO, but these are embarrassing.

I believe it's been discussed that number 3's purpose is to cover that instance where a runner abandons their base and heads straight to their position, someone throws them a glove, and the defense leaves the field - without the 3rd part, umpires would still be standing around waiting for the previous inning to end (until, I suppose, a member of the offense ran onto the pitcher's circle and picked up the ball, killing the otherwise live play!)

I agree that 2 is just stupid. Wondering if this covers some bizarre instance of the runner thinking they are out, not going anywhere... perhaps to a coach's box or something - possible in slow pitch adult ball I suppose.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Wish I could agree, but the case play doesn't have the runner doing either of the "enters a team area OR leaves the field of play", but says can be declared out.

We should also love that it says, "can be called out" - not should be or IS. But can be... sounds like it's vaguely optional for the umpire, yes? rolleyes: