OMG Did I hear this correctly?

[shagpal]

I had a hs umpire once tell me he has never ever blown a call...."ever".

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

The call at first was brutal but not as bad as the one against Japan the other night. The sliding into first base apparently must make it tough to hear the ball and see exactly where the runner's hands are. I know that you have to be a great umpire to work at this level so even the good ones can have bad calls.

[flipper]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

The call at first was brutal but not as bad as the one against Japan the other night. The sliding into first base apparently must make it tough to hear the ball and see exactly where the runner's hands are. I know that you have to be a great umpire to work at this level so even the good ones can have bad calls.

Unfortunately for the game of softball, it seems impossible to watch a televised game without seeing sloppy play, listening to horrible announcers, and watching the "best of the best" umpires absolutely lay an egg. The kicked calls Monday night were bad enough, but not placing the BR on 1st after the supposed runner's INT (the ball was foul) is inexcusable. There were FOUR of them on the field! Four "brain farts" at once? Please!

I don't see the kinds and number of mistakes made in NCAA baseball or certainly not MLB games as I do in almost every televised softball game. This and the low quality of play and announcing will make these games un-watchable to the casual fan and particularly a baseball fan.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by flipper

Unfortunately for the game of softball, it seems impossible to watch a televised game without seeing sloppy play, listening to horrible announcers, and watching the "best of the best" umpires absolutely lay an egg. The kicked calls Monday night were bad enough, but not placing the BR on 1st after the supposed runner's INT (the ball was foul) is inexcusable. There were FOUR of them on the field! Four "brain farts" at once? Please!

I don't see the kinds and number of mistakes made in NCAA baseball or certainly not MLB games as I do in almost every televised softball game. This and the low quality of play and announcing will make these games un-watchable to the casual fan and particularly a baseball fan.

USA, Canada, Australia, and Japan generally have very high quality of play, certainly on par with similar levels of amateur baseball.

However, I think it is past time for major international sporting event organizers to recognize the third team on the field and quit assuming they can mix and match game officials however best meets their diversity or fairness objectives and allow a team of officials to work together over the course of the tournament. MLB (since you bring them up) has umpire teams that stay together the entire season (barring injuries and allowing for time off / vacations).

Since fastpitch softball is a developing sport in most countries, it is also should be recognized that officials from those "developing sport" countries see fewer games of elite play. It would improve the officiating if this was taken into account (how, I don't know... shutting out officials from those countries won't work, either).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

USA, Canada, Australia, and Japan generally have very high quality of play, certainly on par with similar levels of amateur baseball.

However, I think it is past time for major international sporting event organizers to recognize the third team on the field and quit assuming they can mix and match game officials however best meets their diversity or fairness objectives and allow a team of officials to work together over the course of the tournament. MLB (since you bring them up) has umpire teams that stay together the entire season (barring injuries and allowing for time off / vacations).

Since fastpitch softball is a developing sport in most countries, it is also should be recognized that officials from those "developing sport" countries see fewer games of elite play. It would improve the officiating if this was taken into account (how, I don't know... shutting out officials from those countries won't work, either).

Well, I'm going to take this opportunity to promote ASA in this field. As much as many accuse ASA of demanding robotics (I don't believe they do), there is one thing a good ASA umpire can depend upon. I should, and have, walked onto the field with partners I have never met and the pregame was pretty much, "everything by the book" and we all had excellent games. One coach wanted to know why, at a NC, they put three local umpires together on the same game. One was from the SW coast of FL and the other from Columbus, OH area. Did not meet the PU until 15 minutes before the game. The umpire from FL didn't even know our names until after the game.

I would add that some of this does disappear at the local level because the cohesiveness of the staff seems to have become somewhat flexible with a fair amount of personal preference sneaking into some training.

And that is the problem with the ISF. You can send certain trainers all over the world to help train umpires and umpire trainers, but they cannot stay there and monitor how that training info is passed onto the local umpires. And, like it or not, each country develops their own umpires for international play and it isn't always the same as the next country.

[flipper]

What does the make-up of the crew have to do with fair/foul, out/safe, and rules application?

As far as robotics goes, T.S. on the plate and the gentleman at 2nd certainly qualified. I thought Steve at 1st didn't. Can't say about the lady from Japan, but her interaction with Erickson after the HBP call was interesting. I almost looked as if she were saying, "You like that call?". Maybe it's a cultural thing.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by flipper

...Maybe it's a cultural thing.

Bingo. In addition to training differences Mike mentioned, there are also cultural differences, especially in handling disputes, how important "face" is, etc. I would be astonished if these issues did not affect umpires, since they surely do affect business relationships between Americans and Asians (for example)... I know this from personal experience. Suppose an umpire on an all-American crew makes a call, and would ordinarily go to his partner if questioned by the coach. Now suppose it is an international crew and the cultural ways of even simple things like dealing with coaches (conflict) or going for help (face) are different. I don't know if international umpires get any training in cultural differences and how to deal with them, but if they don't, it will most definitely affect the performance of the crew even on simple things.

[mach3]

Tom, no they don't get intercultural training - at least I did not get it from any umpire training. Maybe we will get it before the tournament, but I doubt it.

And I think what Mike points out is one point that does not work internationally. There is a ISF 4MS and 3MS but most umpires use different system during the year. Be it their national or regional (e.g. European) 4MS, 3MS or 2MS. Therefore the system used at the tournament is not the one they practice at home.

I can basically talk from an European perspective but the level of umpirering and especially of umpire training differs a lot from country to country. There is an European umpire license and you need to pass a course for that. But the umpires attending have totally different levels. Since some countries don't have their own umpire training program, for one umpire it might be the first umpire course the attend - while for others get a annual training and feedbacks during the year.
That makes it hard to find a good level for every umpire attending.

And then there is also the language barrier! For some it works ok with English to talk off the field, but under pressure and with the necessity to accurate in the wording when it comes down to rules on the field it is a different story!

I don't have a solution either. But I know, there has been an agreement signed between ASA und ESF (European Softball Federation - the European umbrella organization for the national federations) that should be the basis for support. Maybe that can be used also for umpire exchange and training.

Raoul

[IN ASA BLUE]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Bingo. In addition to training differences Mike mentioned, there are also cultural differences, especially in handling disputes, how important "face" is, etc. I would be astonished if these issues did not affect umpires, since they surely do affect business relationships between Americans and Asians (for example)... I know this from personal experience. Suppose an umpire on an all-American crew makes a call, and would ordinarily go to his partner if questioned by the coach. Now suppose it is an international crew and the cultural ways of even simple things like dealing with coaches (conflict) or going for help (face) are different. I don't know if international umpires get any training in cultural differences and how to deal with them, but if they don't, it will most definitely affect the performance of the crew even on simple things.

I agree with you Dakota, but would add that I would think there has to be some sort of cultural training, especially in this day. Back when I was a Paramedic I got the chance to work the 1987 Pan Am games in Indy. Before any of us were assigned our first venue we had to go through a short culture class. It was not extensive at all but covered some things like making the "OK" sign is not acceptable in many countries and several it is actually an offensive sign.
I would think with today's much higher awareness of cultural differences that in an international event these differences would be covered at some point. As far as the ISF, I would think it would be part of training, but do not know this.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IN ASA BLUE

I agree with you Dakota, but would add that I would think there has to be some sort of cultural training, especially in this day. Back when I was a Paramedic I got the chance to work the 1987 Pan Am games in Indy. Before any of us were assigned our first venue we had to go through a short culture class. It was not extensive at all but covered some things like making the "OK" sign is not acceptable in many countries and several it is actually an offensive sign.
I would think with today's much higher awareness of cultural differences that in an international event these differences would be covered at some point. As far as the ISF, I would think it would be part of training, but do not know this.

Well, guess I'm gonna be the insensitive guy, but I'm a believer of when in Rome, I will do what the Romans do. IMO, it is up to the people visiting an area to adjust, not those who live there, to that culture.

[mach3]

Mike, what does that mean in an international crew? Maybe there is no Roman around

As far as the ISF clinic go: they try to organize it regionally - to lower cost for the pax (or national federations). Therefore at each clinic the pax come from one region (e.g. europe). In my clinic in The Netherlands there was only one pax from the US the rest were from europe - where there are still cultural differences but you basically know the people from tournaments in Europe.

But if it becomes cross-regional that's where the differences grow.

Raoul

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, guess I'm gonna be the insensitive guy, but I'm a believer of when in Rome, I will do what the Romans do. IMO, it is up to the people visiting an area to adjust, not those who live there, to that culture.

I may agree with this in interaction with society in general, but what we're talking about here is operating as a cohesive crew and interacting with international coaches.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I may agree with this in interaction with society in general, but what we're talking about here is operating as a cohesive crew and interacting with international coaches.

Agree....to a point. The host is going to have the majority of the umpires, so which group should, and would it be easier, to allow for an adjustment.

I understand what you are saying, but if I'm working a game in Mexico, I would not expect the multitude of Mexican umpires to accommodate my language, but my responsibility to learn how to communicate with them.

[Skahtboi]

Why continue to be amazed at THs who do softball games on television??? The other day, during the USA/Canada match, I think it was, when the umpiring crew was wearing pink shirts, the male TH said, "I am sure this is a welcome change in this heat from the black shirts they normally wear..."

[txump81]

I remember thinking WTH? Sometimes the best humor comes from listening to the THs and their unintelligible comments.

[DBull]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Why continue to be amazed at THs who do softball games on television??? The other day, during the USA/Canada match, I think it was, when the umpiring crew was wearing pink shirts, the male TH said, "I am sure this is a welcome change in this heat from the black shirts they normally wear..."

Originally Posted by txump81

I remember thinking WTH? Sometimes the best humor comes from listening to the THs and their unintelligible comments.

The TH makes sense to most of the TV audiance, they are not directing their comments to umpires who have a language all their own. I have called ball for almost 40 years and those guys don't upset me at all.