CWS FL-AZ plate umpire

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

and then have the runner into third if that is the secondary play.

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Bandit

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

I don't believe you are correct. However, I only keep my Participant Manual here at work - Umpire version is in my bag, in my car.

[CelticNHBlue]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

I am beginning to question your experience and knowledge of the prescribed mechanics.

The FIRST responsibility of the plate umpire, as mentioned, is pulled foot/swipe tag( /running lane violation/obstruction/interference/coaches interference/dead ball on an overthrow). This is so because there IS a play happening at first base. There IS NOT a play happening at any other location until this play is over and the plate umpire must complete their FIRST responsibility. While this is not a PRIMARY call for the the plate umpire, it is their FIRST responsibility. The play at third IS their PRIMARY call, but it is (possibly, should it develop) their SECOND responsibility. If you abandon your FIRST responsiblity, you have no credibility on anything I listed (and I probably missed a few others).

I would venture to guess that in all my years, I have had more pulled foot/swipe tag issues than plays at third; most often on a set play when F3 comes off early to make the second play at third.

Also, in this situation, angle over distance dictates at 3rd base. Why? because your 3rd base umpire has a 90 if the slide and tag go to the back of the bag, plate umpire gets their prescribed 90 from the advancing runner into 3rd. Both angles are covered then close the distance as best as possible. Three umpires have to cover four bases, that means that on occassion, an umpire will be late to the party, it is a defined

At no time ever (unless an umpire chases) would the plate umpire trail as far as the running lane. 20' in ASA, 15' in NCAA (10' with a runner on first). NEVER 30' or more as you suggest. And why only 10' with a runner on first; because it keeps us closer to our 90 at third.

Also, in a three umpire system, I have, on a couple of occassions, as the 3rd base umpire, taken the runner from first all the way to 3rd. It is a read that has to happen early and your plate umpire has to get hung up in some fashion. I am not suggesting that this was required in the play described, but it is a deviation that is sometimes necessary.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire.

Seems you read that incorrectly. If the play at third is the secondary play, meaning a play has happened somewhere else, then the PU will make the call at third. If the initial play is on R1, PU will not be making this call in any umpire system.

The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

PU has the responsibility to watch for this on plays at first base, and where it is seen from depends on where runners start. But in this instance, with R1 (at first), PU will trail a BR.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane)

Normally? Try like the PU should never trail more than 15 feet.

in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Seems you read that incorrectly. If the play at third is the secondary play, meaning a play has happened somewhere else, then the PU will make the call at third. If the initial play is on R1, PU will not be making this call in any umpire system.

In a 3 umpire system with a runner starting on first and the initial attempt for a out is on R1 as she approaches third, whose call if not the plate umpires?

PU has the responsibility to watch for this on plays at first base, and where it is seen from depends on where runners start. But in this instance, with R1 (at first), PU will trail a BR.

Agreed. Only until R1 is commited to third. Then the plate umpire must move towards 3rd.

Normally? Try like the PU should never trail more than 15 feet.

Agreed. Comment on distance was given only as a reference, not an exact distance.

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

If the runner starts at second the plate should not be trailing BR, true?

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

ASA National Staff

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Bandit

ASA National Staff

Congrats on announcing (boldly!) who wrote the book. Kudos.

Now try opening it. As promised, I did. It's right there in black and white - your assertions are dead wrong.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Congrats on announcing (boldly!) who wrote the book. Kudos.

Now try opening it. As promised, I did. It's right there in black and white - your assertions are dead wrong.

Page?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Page?

Again ... book in the car. However, you've been told by EVERYBODY that you are wrong... why don't you crack open the book for the first time and find even the slimmest shred of evidence supporting your contention, and tell US what page it's on. Good luck. You won't.

You're the guy in the elevator facing the back. When told that you're supposed to face front, you say, "Nope, this is the right way." The entire elevator tells you you're wrong. You say, "Prove it". They all point to a sign on the front of the elevator ... behind you. You say, "Can't see that, I'm facing the back."

[Bandit]

"From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson

runner on 1st. trail and move to poistion at third when runner hits second."

Isn't this what I said?

[topper]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

You'll have to let me know if it's changed, but the '09 CCA Softball manual pg. 181 says:

"...come to the foul line in fair territory and trail the batter-runner about 10 feet up the line. Be stopped in a ready set to see the play at first base. If R1 rounds second base, move to a primary position for a tag play at third base by first establishing your angle and then closing down the distance."

Doesn't seem to definitively support Bandit or Big Slick.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by topper

You'll have to let me know if it's changed, but the '09 CCA Softball manual pg. 181 says:

"...come to the foul line in fair territory and trail the batter-runner about 10 feet up the line. Be stopped in a ready set to see the play at first base. If R1 rounds second base, move to a primary position for a tag play at third base by first establishing your angle and then closing down the distance."

Doesn't seem to definitively support Bandit or Big Slick.

Isn't that what I said? It is on page 183 of the 2011 manual. I was in agreement with Wade (starting writing before he made his post) countering Bandit.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Isn't that what I said? It is on page 182 of the 2011 manual. I was in agreement with Wade (starting writing before he made his post) countering Bandit.

Slick....fixed the page number for you.
P.183 is the coverage for Single to OF w/Runner on 1st. P.182 is the coverage for the OP...Hit to INF w/Runner on 1st.

[ronald]

From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson

runner on 2nd base and ball hit on infield with play going to first base. hp umps primary is 3rd base. move directly up the line and head moves on a swivel. we went over this before.

runner on 1st. trail and move to poistion at third when runner hits second.

[luvthegame]

Originally Posted by ronald

From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson

runner on 2nd base and ball hit on infield with play going to first base. hp umps primary is 3rd base. move directly up the line and head moves on a swivel. we went over this before.

runner on 1st. trail and move to poistion at third when runner hits second.

From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson.

Then where should the 3b umpire go?

Did we go over this before?

[vcblue]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

Bandit... Time to go to another clinic.

BTW. If the clinic is in SoCal that HP umpire most likely will be one of the instructors.

I will be working for Chris next weekend at a Gold Qualifier. I will tell her you don't agree with the mechanic. Maybe you and she can get together and change it.