CWS FL-AZ plate umpire

[Bandit]

Drumm should have never been behind the plate for that game. The assigner knew she had had a tough game with these two teams earlier. The assigner let BOTH teams and Drumm down in this regard. Personally I think her partners let her down as well. How in the world did they not see the ball hit the arm. It was not even close. The problem here was elevated because of the NCAA mechanics. We all have bad games. We all have bad tournaments. Overall the umpiring was not up to the par of what we have come to expect at this level and of these selections. We could get into "agenda's" but I dont think i have enough time.

[flipper]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Drumm should have never been behind the plate for that game. The assigner knew she had had a tough game with these two teams earlier. The assigner let BOTH teams and Drumm down in this regard. Personally I think her partners let her down as well. How in the world did they not see the ball hit the arm. It was not even close. The problem here was elevated because of the NCAA mechanics. We all have bad games. We all have bad tournaments. Overall the umpiring was not up to the par of what we have come to expect at this level and of these selections. We could get into "agenda's" but I dont think i have enough time.

Very good points here.

I'm just curious about your comment on how NCAA mechanics elevated the problem. Just asking.

[Bandit]

The 3rd base umpire was rotated over due to runner on first. This umpire would have had the best view. NCAA mechanics want the plate umpire to go to the first base umpire.
Yes, I know they all got together. All for show.
But you can see by the involvement of the first base umpire in the actions that took place after the request for more information by Drumm that the rotated umpire had little involvement in any substiquent decision.

[flipper]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The 3rd base umpire was rotated over due to runner on first. This umpire would have had the best view. NCAA mechanics want the plate umpire to go to the first base umpire.
Yes, I know they all got together. All for show.
But you can see by the involvement of the first base umpire in the actions that took place after the request for more information by Drumm that the rotated umpire had little involvement in any substiquent decision.

I don't think this was ever a checked swing issue. She did not go to U1 prior to saying it went off the knob. She did, for some reason, walk 3/4 of the way to 1st before bringing the batter back. What's interesting about that is that, in a Super this year, a PU walked down to first, looked at the batter's arm, and then awarded 1st.

I'm not sure a rotated U3 would have had a better view of this than U1 on the line. This was a RH batter. I will say that if either of her partners had anything different, they should have helped her out. I'm pretty sure their coming together was NOT for show.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The assigner knew she had had a tough game with these two teams earlier.

At all NCAA championships, the game assignments are not a decision by a single individual; there is not "an assigner." The UIC makes a recommendation to the committee, who then has the final say.

[Bandit]

Let me see if i understand this.....runner on first, plate ump is to trail BR until he/she is confident of pulled or no pulled foot. AND THEN worry about the runner that had been on first and the subsiquent call at third when that runner is busting butt to go to third.

Why would a plate umpire want to be concerned about a "possible" appeal of a play at first and not be in position for his/her Primary responsibilty of the call at third? Why would a plate umpire be worried about a call that is NOT his/her primary responsibility?

The pulled foot of a first base defensive player is not the primary call of the plate umpire.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Let me see if i understand this.....runner on first, plate ump is to trail BR until he/she is confident of pulled or no pulled foot. AND THEN worry about the runner that had been on first and the subsiquent call at third when that runner is busting butt to go to third.

Why would a plate umpire want to be concerned about a "possible" appeal of a play at first and not be in position for his/her Primary responsibilty of the call at third? Why would a plate umpire be worried about a call that is NOT his/her primary responsibility?

The pulled foot of a first base defensive player is not the primary call of the plate umpire.

That is the responsibility of the PU to watch/help out on the pulled foot/swipe tag, etc in all codes in all umpire systems. Even in a 2 umpire system with a runner on second, you would trail (albeit a few feet), and then have the runner into third if that is the secondary play.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

and then have the runner into third if that is the secondary play.

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Bandit

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

I don't believe you are correct. However, I only keep my Participant Manual here at work - Umpire version is in my bag, in my car.

[CelticNHBlue]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

I am beginning to question your experience and knowledge of the prescribed mechanics.

The FIRST responsibility of the plate umpire, as mentioned, is pulled foot/swipe tag( /running lane violation/obstruction/interference/coaches interference/dead ball on an overthrow). This is so because there IS a play happening at first base. There IS NOT a play happening at any other location until this play is over and the plate umpire must complete their FIRST responsibility. While this is not a PRIMARY call for the the plate umpire, it is their FIRST responsibility. The play at third IS their PRIMARY call, but it is (possibly, should it develop) their SECOND responsibility. If you abandon your FIRST responsiblity, you have no credibility on anything I listed (and I probably missed a few others).

I would venture to guess that in all my years, I have had more pulled foot/swipe tag issues than plays at third; most often on a set play when F3 comes off early to make the second play at third.

Also, in this situation, angle over distance dictates at 3rd base. Why? because your 3rd base umpire has a 90 if the slide and tag go to the back of the bag, plate umpire gets their prescribed 90 from the advancing runner into 3rd. Both angles are covered then close the distance as best as possible. Three umpires have to cover four bases, that means that on occassion, an umpire will be late to the party, it is a defined

At no time ever (unless an umpire chases) would the plate umpire trail as far as the running lane. 20' in ASA, 15' in NCAA (10' with a runner on first). NEVER 30' or more as you suggest. And why only 10' with a runner on first; because it keeps us closer to our 90 at third.

Also, in a three umpire system, I have, on a couple of occassions, as the 3rd base umpire, taken the runner from first all the way to 3rd. It is a read that has to happen early and your plate umpire has to get hung up in some fashion. I am not suggesting that this was required in the play described, but it is a deviation that is sometimes necessary.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire.

Seems you read that incorrectly. If the play at third is the secondary play, meaning a play has happened somewhere else, then the PU will make the call at third. If the initial play is on R1, PU will not be making this call in any umpire system.

The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

PU has the responsibility to watch for this on plays at first base, and where it is seen from depends on where runners start. But in this instance, with R1 (at first), PU will trail a BR.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane)

Normally? Try like the PU should never trail more than 15 feet.

in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Seems you read that incorrectly. If the play at third is the secondary play, meaning a play has happened somewhere else, then the PU will make the call at third. If the initial play is on R1, PU will not be making this call in any umpire system.

In a 3 umpire system with a runner starting on first and the initial attempt for a out is on R1 as she approaches third, whose call if not the plate umpires?

PU has the responsibility to watch for this on plays at first base, and where it is seen from depends on where runners start. But in this instance, with R1 (at first), PU will trail a BR.

Agreed. Only until R1 is commited to third. Then the plate umpire must move towards 3rd.

Normally? Try like the PU should never trail more than 15 feet.

Agreed. Comment on distance was given only as a reference, not an exact distance.

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

If the runner starts at second the plate should not be trailing BR, true?

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

ASA National Staff

[topper]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

You'll have to let me know if it's changed, but the '09 CCA Softball manual pg. 181 says:

"...come to the foul line in fair territory and trail the batter-runner about 10 feet up the line. Be stopped in a ready set to see the play at first base. If R1 rounds second base, move to a primary position for a tag play at third base by first establishing your angle and then closing down the distance."

Doesn't seem to definitively support Bandit or Big Slick.

[vcblue]

Originally Posted by Bandit

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

Bandit... Time to go to another clinic.

BTW. If the clinic is in SoCal that HP umpire most likely will be one of the instructors.

I will be working for Chris next weekend at a Gold Qualifier. I will tell her you don't agree with the mechanic. Maybe you and she can get together and change it.

[flipper]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Bandit... Time to go to another clinic.

BTW. If the clinic is in SoCal that HP umpire most likely will be one of the instructors.

I will be working for Chris next weekend at a Gold Qualifier. I will tell her you don't agree with the mechanic. Maybe you and she can get together and change it.

Maybe they can get together and discuss HBP, timing, and the strike zone as well. There IS some video they can reference for instructional purposes.