Ejected fan

[SamG]

Daughter played in our first tournament yesterday. NSA rule set. Late innings of a game we're winning 6-3(?). A fan makes a comment to the PU that our coach is delaying the game and shouldn't be allowed to. I don't hear anything else and all of a sudden look up just as the fan throws an umbrella against the fence toward the umpire (the fence was the only thing separating fan & ump).

PU ejects the fan. As I'm walking to my car following the game, I see the ejected fan sitting down the LF fence (about even w/left fielder, maybe a little deeper).

We played the same team a couple hours later and I see the fan sitting in the bleachers. We had different umpires by that point.

My question is... I thought if someone was thrown out (coach, player, fan), a) they had to leave the complex (sit in the parking lot?) and b) are not allowed to return. Obviously, even though this was a small tournament (only two fields), that's kind of hard to regulate short of the umpire letting organizers know, and that's even an iffy thing.

Not that I'm planning on ever getting thrown out, but this is the first time I've seen a fan ejected.

Same game, that team had two ~10yo boys running the scoreboard. Umpire called a strike 3 to end an inning. One of the boys started criticizing the call. I'm not talking a "normal" fan reaction, I'm talking repeated comments on how the ump blew the call. I was kind of surprised PU didn't ask for an adult to run the scoreboard.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Why does an umpire even acknowlege what fans say? 90% of the time they don't know the rules and they certainly don't know mechanics. All you do when you acknowlege a fan is throw gasoline on a fire. Ignore it unless it gets to profanity and is inappropriate for the players to hear. If that happens, go over to the coach, take out your line-up card as if you're talking about the game and politely tell him that he needs to remove the fan. It is his responsibility to control his parents and fans.

[SamG]

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

He's saying that the PU has the power to stop the game until the "problem" is fixed by the coach.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by SamG

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

The plate umpire has that authority. However, why exercise that authority? By letting the fans know they can "affect" you, you then open yourself up for more problems. Having umpired for 23 years I find that "hearing" the fans only leads to other problems. If you have to remove a fan let the coach do it for you. I would NEVER address a fan directly. My main concern is what happens on the field. If what happens in the stands begins to effect things on the field then have the coach deal with it.

For instance. I had a 14U game where Daddy's little girl was pitching. She was having an off game and Daddy was all over her from the stands. Berating and belittling her. She began to cry. Well, a young lady pitcher with tears streaming down her face can't very well field a line drive back at her. I called time. I walked out to her and said "Would you like me to have him removed?" She simply nodded her head. I walked over to her coach, pulled out my lineup card and said "Coach, Dad needs to go now, this is becoming a safety issues and I don't want to see your pitcher get hurt. Do you?" Dad left.

No need to directly address the fans.

[IN ASA BLUE]

Normally I would agree, never address the fans, it only encourages them. That being said a coupe of weeks ago I was doing a tournament. I was on the U10 field and due to a shortage of umpires my partner stayed on the same field all tournament. The teams played on 2 fields, so we seen all the teams several times. One "Dad" in particular was very mouthy all weekend, and coaches weren't far behind but they always quieted down just in time*. Anyway the final losers bracket game and Dad is running his mouth as usual from behind the bleachers (we had rain all weekend so few were sitting most were standing behind them)
His daughter bunts down #B line (lines are long gone), I call it foul, close but I feel I was correct. Dad starts jaw jacking. Next pitch is a ball. Next pitch batter bunts again down 3B line. This one was not even as close, Foul Ball.

Dad comes running and screaming to the fence just as I turn to go back behind the plate. I don't know if the fence wasn't there if he would have been right in my face or if he never would have rushed in. My guess is the latter.

Anyway we make eye contact and before I even realize it "SIT DOWN" is coming out of my mouth. Not yelling or loosing it, just sternly. He looks for a second, kinda shocked and just as he starts to say something else he gets another "SIT DOWN" my enunciation is perfect He turned and went back behind the bleachers and I never heard him say another thing.

I would never advocate addressing the fans, and I was wrong doing so, could have went really bad the other way, but this time it worked out.

*= yes I fully admit I let the coaches go on too much because I have a thick skin, but I also know this hurts other umpires and I am getting better at shutting down a mouthy coach, or removing them form the game.

[SamG]

Before this gets sidetracked to various stories of mouthy parents, I'm still looking for answers to my questions...

If you eject someone (fan, coach, player)...
1) Do they have to go to the parking lot or just "out of sight" of the blue who ejected them?
2) Are they ejected for the game? The day? The tournament? That field? How is that regulated?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by SamG

Before this gets sidetracked to various stories of mouthy parents, I'm still looking for answers to my questions...

If you eject someone (fan, coach, player)...
1) Do they have to go to the parking lot or just "out of sight" of the blue who ejected them?
2) Are they ejected for the game? The day? The tournament? That field? How is that regulated?

When it comes to fans, it depends on the rules of the tournament.
When it comes to players or coaches, it may depend on the rules set that you are using or the level "tournament" you are talking about.


And to add to comment's made earlier in regards to spectators.
1) In general, I don't hear spectators.
2) In the event that I really felt something HAD to be done, I do not believe in addressing the fan directly, nor do I agree with burdening a coach with that responsibility. I would look for the tournament director to handle the situation.

[BretMan]

1) ASA 4-8-B: The ejected participant must leave the grounds and have no contact with the umpires or participants in the game.

I enforce that as out of sight, sound, smell....

You said "fan, coach or player"...For me, this would just be "coach or player" as I do not address or engage the spectators.

2) Straight by-the-book, ejections are per game. However, depending on the policy of the individual league or tournament, suspensions can be issued for future game.

[LIUmp]

If you are doing a tournament, you get the tournament director or a representative and have them remove the spectator. In school ball, you tell the home coach to get security to have the person removed. They must leave the complex. In all of my years, I've only had to deal with spectators once as the home coach in a tourney came to me and complained that a spectator was saying obnoxious things to his pitcher and players. So I get the TD and have them take care of it. I don't worry about spectators - they are not within the lines of the field. Bottom line, as long as you tell the TD, home coach or security to have him or her removed then that's all the attention you ever want to give spectators.

As far as players and/or coaches, if they are adults: adults who are ejected must leave the complex and for this game they are ejected. (For sake of argument, as long as they are not able to be seen or heard from the field, this is sufficient and same as leaving the complex). If there is another game that day, they may return for that game, unless the league has rules that give suspensions to players/coaches for ejections. We do NOT handle that - that's for the league to decide.

If the ejected participant is a player who is a minor: They are restricted to the bench in school ball (we are not to have them leave..as an unsupervised child we would not send them away.) In tournaments, we tell the coach that they must leave the dugout if there is someone who can supervise them (Is mom and/or dad or another guardian there?) and if not, they are restricted to the bench. Of course, we do not want to hear them anymore from this point forward - but then again, once they are ejected, I no longer hear them anymore anyway. As far as league games, it depends on the league rules but I would expect it to be treated the same as a tournament.

Hope this helps.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

1) ASA 4-8-B: The ejected participant must leave the grounds and have no contact with the umpires or participants in the game.

I enforce that as out of sight, sound, smell....

You said "fan, coach or player"...For me, this would just be "coach or player" as I do not address or engage the spectators.

2) Straight by-the-book, ejections are per game. However, depending on the policy of the individual league or tournament, suspensions can be issued for future game.

ASA does not give the umpire the authority to eject anyone other than a game participant (team member).

Don't care about the fans. If it is bad enough that it affects the game, the coaches can deal with it. If they refuse to handle it, then we just stop playing.

[SamG]

Thanks guys.

Like I said, I had never seen this before, so I didn't know what could/couldn't be done.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

My position (and I also taught it to new basketball officials in my basketball officiating class) is that an official should ignore fans unless one of the following happens: (1) A fan threatens a participant (game official, player, coach, or bench personnel) with violence; or (2) A fan enters the playing court/field; and either (1) or (2) happens, the game official should stop the game if necessary and notify game management of the situation and let game management. Otherwise, ignore fans no matter how stupid their behavior becomes. That said, a fan throwing an umbrella against the backstop fence in protest of an umpires decision falls under situation (1) above.

MTD, Sr.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

My position (and I also taught it to new basketball officials in my basketball officiating class) is that an official should ignore fans unless one of the following happens: (1) A fan threatens a participant (game official, player, coach, or bench personnel) with violence; or (2) A fan enters the playing court/field; and either (1) or (2) happens, the game official should stop the game if necessary and notify game management of the situation and let game management. Otherwise, ignore fans no matter how stupid their behavior becomes. That said, a fan throwing an umbrella against the backstop fence in protest of an umpires decision falls under situation (1) above.

MTD, Sr.

What about spectators (I refuse to call them "fans"), inciting the players to problems on the field or disrupting the players' attention?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

What about spectators (I refuse to call them "fans"), inciting the players to problems on the field or disrupting the players' attention?

If it's a safety issue or out of bounds (according to your standard), have the coach address it. It's NEVER a good idea to eject a fan directly. Let coach (or possibly TD / game admin) deal with it.