Ejected fan

[SamG]

Daughter played in our first tournament yesterday. NSA rule set. Late innings of a game we're winning 6-3(?). A fan makes a comment to the PU that our coach is delaying the game and shouldn't be allowed to. I don't hear anything else and all of a sudden look up just as the fan throws an umbrella against the fence toward the umpire (the fence was the only thing separating fan & ump).

PU ejects the fan. As I'm walking to my car following the game, I see the ejected fan sitting down the LF fence (about even w/left fielder, maybe a little deeper).

We played the same team a couple hours later and I see the fan sitting in the bleachers. We had different umpires by that point.

My question is... I thought if someone was thrown out (coach, player, fan), a) they had to leave the complex (sit in the parking lot?) and b) are not allowed to return. Obviously, even though this was a small tournament (only two fields), that's kind of hard to regulate short of the umpire letting organizers know, and that's even an iffy thing.

Not that I'm planning on ever getting thrown out, but this is the first time I've seen a fan ejected.

Same game, that team had two ~10yo boys running the scoreboard. Umpire called a strike 3 to end an inning. One of the boys started criticizing the call. I'm not talking a "normal" fan reaction, I'm talking repeated comments on how the ump blew the call. I was kind of surprised PU didn't ask for an adult to run the scoreboard.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Why does an umpire even acknowlege what fans say? 90% of the time they don't know the rules and they certainly don't know mechanics. All you do when you acknowlege a fan is throw gasoline on a fire. Ignore it unless it gets to profanity and is inappropriate for the players to hear. If that happens, go over to the coach, take out your line-up card as if you're talking about the game and politely tell him that he needs to remove the fan. It is his responsibility to control his parents and fans.

[SamG]

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

He's saying that the PU has the power to stop the game until the "problem" is fixed by the coach.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by SamG

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

The plate umpire has that authority. However, why exercise that authority? By letting the fans know they can "affect" you, you then open yourself up for more problems. Having umpired for 23 years I find that "hearing" the fans only leads to other problems. If you have to remove a fan let the coach do it for you. I would NEVER address a fan directly. My main concern is what happens on the field. If what happens in the stands begins to effect things on the field then have the coach deal with it.

For instance. I had a 14U game where Daddy's little girl was pitching. She was having an off game and Daddy was all over her from the stands. Berating and belittling her. She began to cry. Well, a young lady pitcher with tears streaming down her face can't very well field a line drive back at her. I called time. I walked out to her and said "Would you like me to have him removed?" She simply nodded her head. I walked over to her coach, pulled out my lineup card and said "Coach, Dad needs to go now, this is becoming a safety issues and I don't want to see your pitcher get hurt. Do you?" Dad left.

No need to directly address the fans.

[IN ASA BLUE]

Normally I would agree, never address the fans, it only encourages them. That being said a coupe of weeks ago I was doing a tournament. I was on the U10 field and due to a shortage of umpires my partner stayed on the same field all tournament. The teams played on 2 fields, so we seen all the teams several times. One "Dad" in particular was very mouthy all weekend, and coaches weren't far behind but they always quieted down just in time*. Anyway the final losers bracket game and Dad is running his mouth as usual from behind the bleachers (we had rain all weekend so few were sitting most were standing behind them)
His daughter bunts down #B line (lines are long gone), I call it foul, close but I feel I was correct. Dad starts jaw jacking. Next pitch is a ball. Next pitch batter bunts again down 3B line. This one was not even as close, Foul Ball.

Dad comes running and screaming to the fence just as I turn to go back behind the plate. I don't know if the fence wasn't there if he would have been right in my face or if he never would have rushed in. My guess is the latter.

Anyway we make eye contact and before I even realize it "SIT DOWN" is coming out of my mouth. Not yelling or loosing it, just sternly. He looks for a second, kinda shocked and just as he starts to say something else he gets another "SIT DOWN" my enunciation is perfect He turned and went back behind the bleachers and I never heard him say another thing.

I would never advocate addressing the fans, and I was wrong doing so, could have went really bad the other way, but this time it worked out.

*= yes I fully admit I let the coaches go on too much because I have a thick skin, but I also know this hurts other umpires and I am getting better at shutting down a mouthy coach, or removing them form the game.

[SamG]

Before this gets sidetracked to various stories of mouthy parents, I'm still looking for answers to my questions...

If you eject someone (fan, coach, player)...
1) Do they have to go to the parking lot or just "out of sight" of the blue who ejected them?
2) Are they ejected for the game? The day? The tournament? That field? How is that regulated?

[justcallmeblue]

I had a small SPECTATOR issue in a 12U game the other night

Game was a tight one. I had warned the 3B coach that the runner on 2B was leaving too early in the 3rd inning. . .he asks "how can you see that". . .and I said "Simple, when I can see the entire body of the runner on second BEFORE the pitch is released, she is leaving early." NO COMPLAINTS!!

Fast forward 2 innings and the same girl is on 2B. This is in a bases loaded, game within 1 run, between the top 2 teams in the division. SHE LEAVES EARLY AGAIN!!! THe pitcher hadnt even started coming forward when I see the runners entire body moving towards 3rd. I step out and call her out. THE 3B COACH IS FUMING AND YAPPING AT ME, THE 1B COACH IS FUMING. . . .From the stands I hear

"Thats F*&^ing ridiculous, I have umpired professionally for 20 years and I havent seen such a F(*&ing bulls*&^ call in my life." At this time I am walking over the HC to warn him about the spectator when I hear "They've been doing it too the whole f*&^ing night, call it both ways!"

Since I was at the fence where the spectator was, I veered from the coach, gave him a warning, walked over the Spectator and gave him a warning.

Then I hear "Hey BLUE, why did I get the warning, we dont even know who this guy is!!"

Order was restored, the spectator backed off. I come to find he is a local guy who comes to watch games and has had police escorts out of the complex numerous times in the years past. . . .

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

I had a small SPECTATOR issue in a 12U game the other night

Game was a tight one. I had warned the 3B coach that the runner on 2B was leaving too early in the 3rd inning. . .he asks "how can you see that". . .and I said "Simple, when I can see the entire body of the runner on second BEFORE the pitch is released, she is leaving early." NO COMPLAINTS!!

Fast forward 2 innings and the same girl is on 2B. This is in a bases loaded, game within 1 run, between the top 2 teams in the division. SHE LEAVES EARLY AGAIN!!! THe pitcher hadnt even started coming forward when I see the runners entire body moving towards 3rd. I step out and call her out. THE 3B COACH IS FUMING AND YAPPING AT ME, THE 1B COACH IS FUMING. . . .From the stands I hear

"Thats F*&^ing ridiculous, I have umpired professionally for 20 years and I havent seen such a F(*&ing bulls*&^ call in my life." At this time I am walking over the HC to warn him about the spectator when I hear "They've been doing it too the whole f*&^ing night, call it both ways!"

Since I was at the fence where the spectator was, I veered from the coach, gave him a warning, walked over the Spectator and gave him a warning.

Then I hear "Hey BLUE, why did I get the warning, we dont even know who this guy is!!"

Order was restored, the spectator backed off. I come to find he is a local guy who comes to watch games and has had police escorts out of the complex numerous times in the years past. . . .

My two cents: First, don't talk to spectators. Period.

Second, don't "warn" the coaches. Period. If she is leaving early then call it. If it was happening in the third inning, then call it in the third inning. Don't warn and then two innings later call it.

Third, If there were bases loaded in a tight game, and she was leaving early all game, why wasn't she called out before reaching second base? And how come your partner didn't call her out when she was at first, assuming she was there prior to her being on second, and assuming she was leaving early?

Fourth, don't go looking for trouble....it finds you anyway. Bases loaded, I want to make sure the girl on third isn't leaving early. The girl on second isn't going far with a runner ahead of her.

Again, if she was leaving early, then call it. I'm just tossing my two cents over how you managed the game and these situations. It reads like you were stirring the pot a bit and then were surprised at the backlash you received.

[justcallmeblue]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

My two cents: First, don't talk to spectators. Period.

Second, don't "warn" the coaches. Period. If she is leaving early then call it. If it was happening in the third inning, then call it in the third inning. Don't warn and then two innings later call it.

Third, If there were bases loaded in a tight game, and she was leaving early all game, why wasn't she called out before reaching second base? And how come your partner didn't call her out when she was at first, assuming she was there prior to her being on second, and assuming she was leaving early?

Fourth, don't go looking for trouble....it finds you anyway. Bases loaded, I want to make sure the girl on third isn't leaving early. The girl on second isn't going far with a runner ahead of her.

Again, if she was leaving early, then call it. I'm just tossing my two cents over how you managed the game and these situations. It reads like you were stirring the pot a bit and then were surprised at the backlash you received.

Thanks for the input - and I never take posts personally. . just need to clarify your assumptions

R1 reached on single, R2 reached on double, R1 to third, R3 HBP. That's how the bases became loaded in the 5th (dont recall the 3rd inning)

1) League rules state the first time a runner leaves early, it is a warning. . .anything after is an out.
2) I never said she was leaving early "ALL GAME" We can assume she did, but 2nd is where I caught her - (twice)
3) I had no partner
4) 2nd base is the most obvious to see an early lead - period!

Just wondering how I stirred the pot? By enforcing a rule? By talking to a spectator who would have kept on going like the energizer bunny if I hadn't warned him with an ejection?

Where, in my post do you think I was "surprised" to hear the backlash - I expect to hear backlash when I make tough/unpopular calls.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

Thanks for the input - and I never take posts personally. . just need to clarify your assumptions

R1 reached on single, R2 reached on double, R1 to third, R3 HBP. That's how the bases became loaded in the 5th (dont recall the 3rd inning)

1) League rules state the first time a runner leaves early, it is a warning. . .anything after is an out.
2) I never said she was leaving early "ALL GAME" We can assume she did, but 2nd is where I caught her - (twice)
3) I had no partner
4) 2nd base is the most obvious to see an early lead - period!

Just wondering how I stirred the pot? By enforcing a rule? By talking to a spectator who would have kept on going like the energizer bunny if I hadn't warned him with an ejection?

Where, in my post do you think I was "surprised" to hear the backlash - I expect to hear backlash when I make tough/unpopular calls.

That spectator didn't deserve a warning. He needed to go ... PRONTO!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

Thanks for the input - and I never take posts personally. . just need to clarify your assumptions

R1 reached on single, R2 reached on double, R1 to third, R3 HBP. That's how the bases became loaded in the 5th (dont recall the 3rd inning)

1) League rules state the first time a runner leaves early, it is a warning. . .anything after is an out.
2) I never said she was leaving early "ALL GAME" We can assume she did, but 2nd is where I caught her - (twice)
3) I had no partner
4) 2nd base is the most obvious to see an early lead - period!

I can certainly understand and appreciate the position you're in on this call. If the league rules state she gets a warning, then whether we like it or not, she gets the warning.

Originally Posted by justcallmeblue

Just wondering how I stirred the pot? By enforcing a rule? By talking to a spectator who would have kept on going like the energizer bunny if I hadn't warned him with an ejection?

Where, in my post do you think I was "surprised" to hear the backlash - I expect to hear backlash when I make tough/unpopular calls.

In my opinion, the better way to handle it is to never, ever talk to the spectators. Nothing good ever comes of it. If there's an issue, find a coach and have them deal with it. If the spectator is that bad and has no affiliation with either team, then have one (or even BOTH) coaches handle getting this guy outta there. Hold up play until the guy is gone, and if he won't leave on his own, let 911 handle it. 99 times out of 100, he'll be long gone before the police arrive.

But addressing the spectators is almost guaranteed to stir the pot. They LOVE going after us umpires, and the moment you show any sign of being affected by even one of them, the rest of them will be all over you. It ain't worth it.