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ASA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA Fastpitch, NYSSO Umpire As umpires, we are expected to be perfect our first game and get better every time out thereafter. Last edited by LIUmp; Sat May 21, 2011 at 04:33pm. |
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So...you're saying I was incorrect with having batter number 4 come up?
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ASA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA Fastpitch, NYSSO Umpire As umpires, we are expected to be perfect our first game and get better every time out thereafter. |
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It comes down to two things: 1) Honor the appeal. B3 is out for failing to bat. B4 due up next inning. But, IMO, this is not supported by rule as this would be the 4th out. 2) Do not honor the appeal, due to (1). B2's at bat is legal, and B3 is due up. Do you honor the appeal? Last edited by PSUchem; Sat May 21, 2011 at 09:40pm. |
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I was not looking to call, not did we call a fourth out on the play. The batter who hit twice, B2 in the lineup, grounded out for out 3. The coach then told the plate umpire that she batted again and that the offense batted out of order. The coach asks for his appeal - he even had his catcher say it to the PU. The appeal was proper and legal. Since we had a 3rd out, we will not get an additional out, but we do have to make sure that the correct batter comes up in the next half inning. I believe that correct batter is B4.
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ASA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA Fastpitch, NYSSO Umpire As umpires, we are expected to be perfect our first game and get better every time out thereafter. Last edited by LIUmp; Sat May 21, 2011 at 10:05pm. |
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So you are saying you can appeal BOO and not call an out? That's not possible. You either appeal for the out or you don't. You can't pick which half of the "EFFECT" you want, IMO. |
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The defensive team forfeits its right to appeal BOO when a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (this did not happen due to the third out of the inning) or when the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench. (No, this did not happen either).
So the defense has the right to appeal BOO in this situation in the OP. Next issue... If the error is discovered AFTER the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat (check) and before a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (can't happen in my case) or before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench area (THIS DID HAPPEN), EFFECT(S) a. The player who should have batted (B3 in my OP) is OUT. (But we already have 3 outs so now what?) b. Any advance or score made by the improper batter shall be nullified (ground out...no advance, no anything, it was the third out so no problems there) Any out that is made prior to discovering this infraction remains an OUT. (so her ground out remains out NUMBER 3. Check.) c. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player who was called out for failing to bat. (Player failing to bat was B3, so isn't that B4?) d. If the batter declared out under these circumstances is the third out, the correct batter in the next inning shall be the batter who would have come to bat had the player been put out under ordinary play. (what? We already had 3 outs, so she was not declared the third out under these circumstances.) I am NOT choosing which half of the effect I want. I was following the rule to the letter. I still don't see where B3 comes to bat. I do see your argument, but I guess my real question here is....does it change the way the rule is interpreted when you have three outs? I think we all agree that if there was only one out and the improper batter grounded out for out number 2 and then the defense properly appealed BOO, we would declare B3 out, and it would be the third out and B4 would bat. Also, if there were no outs and the same thing happened, we would call B3 out for BOO, keep the out for the ground out of B2, and have B4 come up to bat. So why would this be different since it was the third out?
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ASA, NCAA, PONY, USSSA Fastpitch, NYSSO Umpire As umpires, we are expected to be perfect our first game and get better every time out thereafter. Last edited by LIUmp; Sat May 21, 2011 at 11:19pm. |
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In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs. Admitting I drank two 32 oz margaritas (and a beer before, and a beer after) before coming home, doesn't this fix all the issues named above?? NOTE: Hey, it was a long day. 90 degrees plus, high humidity, I called 18 Gold at 9, 11, off at 1, 3, 5, and 7. Five games in 6 slots; I needed the salt (on the rim), the liquid, and yes, the tequila. Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.
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Steve ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF |
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You have correctly identified the issue. Which out is called "first"? If the proper batter is called out "first," we have no issue. Honor the appeal. However, since the rule says "all outs made stand," it leads me to believe that they have already been recorded, and occur "first." If we can agree that since a. comes before b., then the proper batter is called out "first," then that's what I will call from this point forward and be able to sleep at night. |
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And the result is logical (to what most of us think). I'll drink to that.... |
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
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Consider a more complex situation. Bases loaded, 2 outs, wrong batter hits a triple and is thrown out at home. Are you going to disallow a BOO appeal here, allowing 3 runs to score simply because the BR was put out? Of course not. The batter that should have batted is out (that's 3). Runners put back on their bases, and any runners put out on the play called out (THAT is now the 4th out.)
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I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'” West Houston Mike |
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In ASA you need to read the rule literally and linerally. 8.2.D.2 EFFECT a) "The player who should have batted is out." That's the first thing. THAT player is the 3rd out. THEN you move on to the rest of the penalty - b) Nullify play, all outs stand. (the phantom 4th out that doesn't count is on the BR). Don't be tricked into thinking "all outs stand" happens before "play is nullified" or before "the player who should have batted is out." You gotta keep it linear in this rule penalty. In your Sit #2, the 3rd out is the player who should have batted, or B6. Then B7 comes to bat next inning.
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