batting out of order...or ....

[LIUmp]

To clear up some .. here's how it was discovered.

There were a few lengthy delays throughout this inning. Switching the ball because it was wet after the lead off ground out.....two defensive conferences. After the catch and carry, I must not have advanced the number of outs on my indicator to 2. And neither did my partner, because once I arrived in the C position, he flashed 1 out to me. The DC knew there were 3 outs after B2 grounded out. But after the ground out for the 3rd out, it was the OC who thought he was jipped. He argued that there were only two outs and he didn't know that the foul out was an out. (I don't know how). NO ONE noticed that the B2 got up again. OC says she only grounded out, to which DC said yes and she also fouled out. She batted twice. My partner said, "yes she batted twice and we now have 4 outs." (DOH!). DC says she shouldn't have batted, and it should have been B3. OC is MAD that PU wasn't paying attention and let her bat again. PU says, I didn't realize it until she was running to first on the groundout.

We think that's the end of that, but I realize that when they bat again, we will have the same issue because who will lead off????

Now the next time they come up my partner tells him that his number 3 batter is up, because the number 2 batter made last out. DC comes out and says it should be B4 up. PU calls me in and then goes to get rule book. I ask to see scorebooks. I wait for partner and hear him out as he tries to say that we have to put B3 up because B2 made last out. I say no, as B2 batted and fouled out and then B2 batted (for B3) and grounded out.

The DC said that if B3 batted, he would protest the game. I was pretty sure that the correct batter was to be B4. In this third out situation, was I wrong? The BOO was brought up, but it was also stated that it didn't matter as there were already three outs.

[RKBUmp]

In a batting out of order situation, it is not the wrong batter that is called out, it is the batter who should have batted who is out. In your situation, B3 should have been the batter, but B2 batted in her place. B3 is out on the appeal, B4 is your lead off batter the next inning.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

In a batting out of order situation, it is not the wrong batter that is called out, it is the batter who should have batted who is out. In your situation, B3 should have been the batter, but B2 batted in her place. B3 is out on the appeal, B4 is your lead off batter the next inning.

What he said.

[BretMan]

After a succsessful bating out of order appeal, the next correct batter is the one whose name immediately follows the batter who was called out for failing to bat.

In your scenario...

- B3 (who should have been the proper batter) is called for failing to bat.

- B4 is the next proper batter.

"OC is MAD that PU wasn't paying attention and let her bat again."

OC was asleep at the wheel and wants to blame it on the umpires.

[LIUmp]

I know that when BOO occurs, the next correct batter is the one whose name immediately follows the batter who was called out for failing to bat. My question is, that in my scenario, no one was called out for failing to bat. We had 3 outs in the inning - then the DC said there was BOO.

So, in this case, when you already have 3 outs, and BOO is discovered, the next inning we put up the batter who's turn it should be had there NOT been BOO? Even though we didn't get an out for BOO?

B4 bats...correct?

Sorry if I'm making this confusing, I just want to make sure I understand this specific situation.

My partner's argument was that once B2 took a pitch on her incorrect at bat, she became the correct batter and it's too late to do anything about it and that the lineup "resets" from that point on. I maintained that no matter how many outs there were, the next batter that should come up at this point is B4, because B3 failed to bat.

[Snocatzdad]

Originally Posted by BretMan

"OC is MAD that PU wasn't paying attention and let her bat again."

OC was asleep at the wheel and wants to blame it on the umpires.

Normally I would agree but given a few of the specifics of the situation.

#1 "ruled it a catch and carry" I understand what this means but if it wasn't clearly indicated I could see some confusion. Base runner advancement could have been for an illegal pitch as opposed to taking the ball into DBT.

#2 "even though it was the second out, both of us indicated 1 out to the field" This adds to the confusion from #1 and I think lets the OC off the hook somewhat because if the batter had been ruled out on the previous play then it should have been two outs and it's reasonable that the OC thought that meant the ball was caught in DBT not caught in foul and carried to DBT.

#3 Plate umpire didn't remark on same batter still being up, Again this mitigates the OC's responsibility. PU wouldn't let batter continue after ball four or strike three, so why would she still be there if her at bat was complete.

[Dakota]

Snocatzdad, here's a different perspective.

As the plate umpire, I don't pay any attention at all to the batting order as players come up to bat. I only pay attention when the coach is making substitutions or when the opposing coach is appealing a BOO.

Given the situation in the OP, IF I noticed the same batter had remained in the batter's box, I may have asked her if she knew she was out on the last play, but, again, it is the OC's responsibility to ensure the correct batter is up to bat, not mine. Recall, I was down the line watching the catch with my back to home plate. Unless I actually recognize the player, I may not notice whether the batter is the same player as before or a different player.

Umpires sometimes lose track of the number of outs; it is rare for BOTH partners to lose track at the same time, but it could happen. What the umpires signal to each other regarding the number of outs does not change the actual number of outs.

Perhaps the OC was as confused as to what happened on the previous play as his batter apparently was; if so, he should have asked for clarification. Or, perhaps he knew there were 2 outs, but when he saw the umpires signal 1 out decided not to say anything.

Regardless, even though the umpire crew may have contributed to some confusion by signaling 1 out, they are not required to explain terminology when making a correct call (i.e. "catch and carry") on the chance that one coach or the other may not understand it, and the plate umpire is not responsible for monitoring the batting order. The OP's situation and a routine strike out or base on balls are different; in a routine strike out or BOB, the PU is right there watching the batter. In the OP, he wasn't.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

(snip) In this third out situation, was I wrong? The BOO was brought up, but it was also stated that it didn't matter as there were already three outs.

Everyone is forgetting a very important detail. The groundout by the improper batter was the third out of the inning. In ASA, thou shalt not call a fourth out unless it is an appeal on a runner who has scored. Unlike NCAA, there is no stipulation for allowing an appeal on BOO as a fourth out. Without being able to appeal, B2's second at-bat must stand, and B3 will lead off next inning.

This is a major loophole in the ASA rules, and I have brought it to the attention of numerous "higher-ups," with no clear answer.

Situation #2: 2 outs, B6 is due up to bat. Instead, B9 comes to bat and grounds out. 3 outs. Without being able to appeal, B9's at-bat is legal. B1 leads off next inning. You have just effectively skipped the bottom of the order.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Everyone is forgetting a very important detail. The groundout by the improper batter was the third out of the inning. In ASA, thou shalt not call a fourth out unless it is an appeal on a runner who has scored. Unlike NCAA, there is no stipulation for allowing an appeal on BOO as a fourth out. Without being able to appeal, B2's second at-bat must stand, and B3 will lead off next inning.

This is a major loophole in the ASA rules, and I have brought it to the attention of numerous "higher-ups," with no clear answer.

Situation #2: 2 outs, B6 is due up to bat. Instead, B9 comes to bat and grounds out. 3 outs. Without being able to appeal, B9's at-bat is legal. B1 leads off next inning. You have just effectively skipped the bottom of the order.

Wait - that makes no sense! If that were the case, then a coach can send his number 2 batter up to bat any time there are two outs and have her hit a pitch while she was standing on home plate for the third out JUST so he can send his number 3 batter up to the plate in the next inning - presuming they don't get caught of course.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

Wait - that makes no sense! If that were the case, then a coach can send his number 2 batter up to bat any time there are two outs and have her hit a pitch while she was standing on home plate for the third out JUST so he can send his number 3 batter up to the plate in the next inning - presuming they don't get caught of course.

Exactly. But, try to find support in the rules for calling that 4th out on a BOO. It just isn't there, beyond applying the "God" rule (10-1) at your personal discretion. It appears this is the only time where it would be advantageous for the defensive coach to call attention to the BOO during the at bat.

NCAA has this covered:

A.R. 7.1.3.2: Bottom of the seventh inning, two outs, tie score. The batter in the sixth spot in the batting order (average hitter but slow runner) is scheduled to bat, but the coach sends the batter in the ninth spot (fastest runner on the team) to the plate with instructions to strike out for the third out. The defensive coach notices batting out of order, but waits to see the result of her turn at bat. RULING: Even though the defense got the strikeout as the third out, they may appeal batting out of order to correct the batting order for the eighth inning when the tiebreaker was to begin.

[LIUmp]

So...you're saying I was incorrect with having batter number 4 come up?

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

So...you're saying I was incorrect with having batter number 4 come up?

Due to this technicality, yes. If there had been less than 2 outs, then your ruling would have been correct. (And, as you can see, most on this board, without realizing this technicality, would have ruled the same.) I would welcome discussion otherwise from others on the board.

It comes down to two things:
1) Honor the appeal. B3 is out for failing to bat. B4 due up next inning. But, IMO, this is not supported by rule as this would be the 4th out.
2) Do not honor the appeal, due to (1). B2's at bat is legal, and B3 is due up.

Do you honor the appeal?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Due to this technicality, yes. If there had been less than 2 outs, then your ruling would have been correct. (And, as you can see, most on this board, without realizing this technicality, would have ruled the same.) I would welcome discussion otherwise from others on the board.

It comes down to two things:
1) Honor the appeal. B3 is out for failing to bat. B4 due up next inning. But, IMO, this is not supported by rule as this would be the 4th out.
2) Do not honor the appeal, due to (1). B2's at bat is legal, and B3 is due up.

Do you honor the appeal?

This is incorrect... and perhaps the fact that this is incorrect is why you are not getting any response from your higher ups. Your assertion is simply wrong. The appeal for BOO is certainly allowed. It's not a 4th out appeal. The BOO is the 3rd out.

Consider a more complex situation. Bases loaded, 2 outs, wrong batter hits a triple and is thrown out at home. Are you going to disallow a BOO appeal here, allowing 3 runs to score simply because the BR was put out? Of course not. The batter that should have batted is out (that's 3). Runners put back on their bases, and any runners put out on the play called out (THAT is now the 4th out.)

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

Exactly. But, try to find support in the rules for calling that 4th out on a BOO. It just isn't there, beyond applying the "God" rule (10-1) at your personal discretion. It appears this is the only time where it would be advantageous for the defensive coach to call attention to the BOO during the at bat.

You mean rule 10-3-C. 10-1 talks about the power and duties of the umpire.


I was not looking to call, not did we call a fourth out on the play. The batter who hit twice, B2 in the lineup, grounded out for out 3. The coach then told the plate umpire that she batted again and that the offense batted out of order. The coach asks for his appeal - he even had his catcher say it to the PU. The appeal was proper and legal. Since we had a 3rd out, we will not get an additional out, but we do have to make sure that the correct batter comes up in the next half inning. I believe that correct batter is B4.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

You mean rule 10-3-C. 10-1 talks about the power and duties of the umpire.


I was not looking to call, not did we call a fourth out on the play. The batter who hit twice, B2 in the lineup, grounded out for out 3. The coach then told the plate umpire that she batted again and that the offense batted out of order. The coach asks for his appeal - he even had his catcher say it to the PU. The appeal was proper and legal. Since we had a 3rd out, we will not get an additional out, but we do have to make sure that the correct batter comes up in the next half inning. I believe that correct batter is B4.

No, I meant what I said. 10-3-C talks about an umpire who reverses a call and puts a team in jeopardy. 10-1 mentions "They have the power to order a player, coach, captain or manager to carry out or to omit any act which, in their judgment is necessary to give force and effect to one or all of these rules..."

So you are saying you can appeal BOO and not call an out? That's not possible. You either appeal for the out or you don't. You can't pick which half of the "EFFECT" you want, IMO.