Batting Out of Order

[Eastshire]

Here's a case play that came up in the association meeting last night.

Fed rules.

R2, R1, no outs. Able is the proper batter but Baker is batting. Baker hits a grounder to F5 who tags R2 and throws to second to force R1. BR is safe at first. Within the proper time limit, the defensive coach appeals the improper batter.

What's your ruling?

[jkumpire]

He appeals?


If he wants to give up and out and leave 2 runners on I guess he can.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

He appeals?


If he wants to give up and out and leave 2 runners on I guess he can.

He said FED. In FED the two outs obtained on the play count. Then call the proper batter out and the inning is over.

In OBR you erase the outs, put the runners back and call the proper batter out - leaving one out with two on base.

[TwoBits]

Any outs made on the play by the improper batter stand. After the appeal, I've got the third out, inning over, Baker leads off the next inning.

[jkumpire]

You are correct. Next time I'll drink coffee and put glasses on before I read the play .

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Any outs made on the play by the improper batter stand.

I don't think you meant to word that the way you did (or maybe I'm mis-reading it). Outs made by the improper batter are negated; outs made by other runners stand.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

He said FED. In FED the two outs obtained on the play count. Then call the proper batter out and the inning is over.

In OBR you erase the outs, put the runners back and call the proper batter out - leaving one out with two on base.

Our instructor last night said we could do it either way because the rule was unclear

What's the reference for OBR?

I see that 6.07 says, in part, "nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise." But I'm not sure what the basis of uncalling outs is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Our instructor last night said we could do it either way because the rule was unclear

Either your instructor is wrong, you misunerstood him/her, or s/he was responding to a different situation.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Either your instructor is wrong, you misunerstood him/her, or s/he was responding to a different situation.

He handed out a sheet with the situation on it and I pointedly challenged him on it to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding.

I think it's more of a case of him not liking the FED rule and trying to justify doing it differently.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I think it's more of a case of him not liking the FED rule and trying to justify doing it differently.

That's not very good instructing.

[BK47]

In our Association Meeting last week we had a similar Quick Quiz question:

What is the maximum number of outs that can be recorded on a play when "Batting out of order" is successfully appealed by the defense?

A.1
B.2
C.3

I came up with the same play; R1,R2 on second and first, no outs, sharply hit ball to F6. F6 tages R1 on his way to third, throws to second for the force of R2 while B/R is safe at first. Defense appeals BOO and I get the third out, inning over.

BTW, this was a FED quick quiz question.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

What's the reference for OBR?

I see that 6.07 says, in part, "nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise." But I'm not sure what the basis of uncalling outs is.

It means "the play never happened". If it didn't happen, there were no outs because there was no advance that allowed them to happen.

Also, to nullify the advance you need to put the runners back where they started. You can only do that if they are NOT out.

MLBUM 3.2

Any advance or outs made because of an improper batter becoming a runner would be nullified if the defensive team appeals at the proper time. (Outs made because of a pick-off or caught stealing while the improper batter is at bat are legal.) Play is to revert back to the position of the runners at the time the improper batter took a position in the batter's box (with the exception of advances covered in the Note to Official Baseball Rule 6.07(b) or outs made on a pick-off or steal play while the improper batter is at bat).

This is why you cannot use just the rule book. You need the interpretations, and rulings made by the official sources (MLBUM, PBUC, FED Case book and Postings) and other authoratative sources (Evans, Roder, BRD). You also need to "keep up" as things get revised annually. Make sure you have the latest info. Keep using forums like this and others that can help keep you informed and point you to the other sources you need. Glad you're trying to learn - it's a good thinh.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It means "the play never happened". If it didn't happen, there were no outs.

To nullify the advance you need to put the runners back where they started. You can only do that if they are NOT out.

MLBUM 3.2

Any advance or outs made because of an improper batter becoming a runner would be nullified if the defensive team appeals at the proper time. (Outs made because of a pick-off or caught stealing while the improper batter is at bat are legal.) Play is to revert back to the position of the runners at the time the improper batter took a position in the batter's box (with the exception of advances covered in the Note to Official Baseball Rule 6.07(b) or outs made on a pick-off or steal play while the improper batter is at bat).

This is why you cannot use just the rule book. You need the interpretations, and rulings made by the official sources (MLBUM, PBUC, FED Case book and Postings) and other authoratative sources (Evans, Roder, BRD). You also need to "keep up" as things get revised annually. Make sure you have the latest info. Keep using forums like this and others that can help keep you informed and point you to the other sources you need. Glad you're trying to learn - it's a good thinh.

So being put out is considered part of an advance and is therefore nullified. I've always been a strict FED only ump so I don't have the OBR references. Thanks.