batting out of order...or ....

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

You mean rule 10-3-C. 10-1 talks about the power and duties of the umpire.


I was not looking to call, not did we call a fourth out on the play. The batter who hit twice, B2 in the lineup, grounded out for out 3. The coach then told the plate umpire that she batted again and that the offense batted out of order. The coach asks for his appeal - he even had his catcher say it to the PU. The appeal was proper and legal. Since we had a 3rd out, we will not get an additional out, but we do have to make sure that the correct batter comes up in the next half inning. I believe that correct batter is B4.

No, I meant what I said. 10-3-C talks about an umpire who reverses a call and puts a team in jeopardy. 10-1 mentions "They have the power to order a player, coach, captain or manager to carry out or to omit any act which, in their judgment is necessary to give force and effect to one or all of these rules..."

So you are saying you can appeal BOO and not call an out? That's not possible. You either appeal for the out or you don't. You can't pick which half of the "EFFECT" you want, IMO.

[LIUmp]

The defensive team forfeits its right to appeal BOO when a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (this did not happen due to the third out of the inning) or when the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench. (No, this did not happen either).

So the defense has the right to appeal BOO in this situation in the OP.

Next issue...

If the error is discovered AFTER the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat (check) and before a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (can't happen in my case) or before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench area (THIS DID HAPPEN),

EFFECT(S)
a. The player who should have batted (B3 in my OP) is OUT. (But we already have 3 outs so now what?)

b. Any advance or score made by the improper batter shall be nullified (ground out...no advance, no anything, it was the third out so no problems there) Any out that is made prior to discovering this infraction remains an OUT. (so her ground out remains out NUMBER 3. Check.)

c. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player who was called out for failing to bat. (Player failing to bat was B3, so isn't that B4?)

d. If the batter declared out under these circumstances is the third out, the correct batter in the next inning shall be the batter who would have come to bat had the player been put out under ordinary play. (what? We already had 3 outs, so she was not declared the third out under these circumstances.)

I am NOT choosing which half of the effect I want. I was following the rule to the letter. I still don't see where B3 comes to bat.

I do see your argument, but I guess my real question here is....does it change the way the rule is interpreted when you have three outs? I think we all agree that if there was only one out and the improper batter grounded out for out number 2 and then the defense properly appealed BOO, we would declare B3 out, and it would be the third out and B4 would bat. Also, if there were no outs and the same thing happened, we would call B3 out for BOO, keep the out for the ground out of B2, and have B4 come up to bat. So why would this be different since it was the third out?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

No, I meant what I said. 10-3-C talks about an umpire who reverses a call and puts a team in jeopardy. 10-1 mentions "They have the power to order a player, coach, captain or manager to carry out or to omit any act which, in their judgment is necessary to give force and effect to one or all of these rules..."

So you are saying you can appeal BOO and not call an out? That's not possible. You either appeal for the out or you don't. You can't pick which half of the "EFFECT" you want, IMO.

My opinion; not an official ASA ruling or case play, as I don't have that authority. But, I do have some insight from the ASA Rules Committee (former member).

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

Admitting I drank two 32 oz margaritas (and a beer before, and a beer after) before coming home, doesn't this fix all the issues named above??

NOTE: Hey, it was a long day. 90 degrees plus, high humidity, I called 18 Gold at 9, 11, off at 1, 3, 5, and 7. Five games in 6 slots; I needed the salt (on the rim), the liquid, and yes, the tequila.

Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

If the error is discovered AFTER the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat (check) and before a legal or illegal pitch has been made to the following batter (can't happen in my case) or before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the dugout or bench area (THIS DID HAPPEN),

I agree, if we were going to honor the appeal, this condition is met. However, you still have not demonstrated how we can honor the appeal at all, as the only way to get a fourth out is on a runner who has scored.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

EFFECT(S)
a. The player who should have batted (B3 in my OP) is OUT. (But we already have 3 outs so now what?)

"Now what" is that, IMO, you can't honor the appeal, because you can't have a 4th out.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

b. Any advance or score made by the improper batter shall be nullified (ground out...no advance, no anything, it was the third out so no problems there) Any out that is made prior to discovering this infraction remains an OUT. (so her ground out remains out NUMBER 3. Check.)
(snip)

New emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

I am NOT choosing which half of the effect I want. I was following the rule to the letter. I still don't see where B3 comes to bat.

B3 comes to bat because we haven't honored the appeal and B2's at bat (the second one) is legal.

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

I do see your argument, but I guess my real question here is....does it change the way the rule is interpreted when you have three outs? I think we all agree that if there was only one out and the improper batter grounded out for out number 2 and then the defense properly appealed BOO, we would declare B3 out, and it would be the third out and B4 would bat. Also, if there were no outs and the same thing happened, we would call B3 out for BOO, keep the out for the ground out of B2, and have B4 come up to bat. So why would this be different since it was the third out?

I agree, in these situations, the appeal would be honored. The difference is, the rulebook gives a specific way to obtain a 4th out, and this isn't it.

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

First, the book does not allow for a 5th out. Reference? The NCAA book mentions it, but ASA does not.

You have correctly identified the issue. Which out is called "first"? If the proper batter is called out "first," we have no issue. Honor the appeal. However, since the rule says "all outs made stand," it leads me to believe that they have already been recorded, and occur "first."

If we can agree that since a. comes before b., then the proper batter is called out "first," then that's what I will call from this point forward and be able to sleep at night.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

My opinion; not an official ASA ruling or case play, as I don't have that authority. But, I do have some insight from the ASA Rules Committee (former member).

In the case you are discussing, IF a proper appeal was made for BOO, I WOULD honor it. Not a fourth out appeal; a BOO appeal FIRST rules the correct batter out, THEN tells you to keep OTHER outs made on that play. In my mind, that means the BOO isn't the a fourth out appeal; it supercedes and becomes the third out, and whatever happened on the play becomes fourth (and even fifth) outs.

Admitting I drank two 32 oz margaritas (and a beer before, and a beer after) before coming home, doesn't this fix all the issues named above??

NOTE: Hey, it was a long day. 90 degrees plus, high humidity, I called 18 Gold at 9, 11, off at 1, 3, 5, and 7. Five games in 6 slots; I needed the salt (on the rim), the liquid, and yes, the tequila.

Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.

Nice work....
And the result is logical (to what most of us think).

I'll drink to that....

[argodad]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Back tomorrow at 9, 11, 1, and 5. And don't blame the assignor; it's me, and it's necessary.

Stay hydrated!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by argodad

Stay hydrated!

What would do that, the tequila or the worm?