International Tie Breaker

[derwil]

I'm a newish umpire looking for clarification. Finals of a local HS tournament tonight I have the plate. Two top ten in the state teams playing and time runs out with the score tied. We go to ITB. I was taught that the runner @ second was the last batted out. Visitors place their runner on second and score her, 3 outs move to the bottom of the inning. Visiting coach puts the last out on second, which was a runner caught stealing second. Fans from visitor's team and coaches are yelling "last batted out". I check with home coach and get it straightened out, or so I thought. The last batted out goes to second, who was then subbed for - 1 run scores and we move to the second inning of ITB.

Partner comes up between innings and says that it's not the last batted out that runs at second, it's the last batter in the lineup for the inning. If #4 batter is up, #3 batter is running. I tell him that's not how I was taught, both coaches are now on board with how we are doing it and I'm sure it's correct - We're staying with what we've got. Home team loses in the second inning of ITB when they cannot plate the runner from second.

So.....I called a buddy of mine and he confirmed that I was correct, it's the last batted out that goes on second. Still not 100% sure I go the the Fed rule book. Nada. Go to the state official's manual. Zip. Finally did a search on the ISF rules page and find Rule 5 Section 6:

Sec. 6. TIE-BREAKER.
Starting with the top of the eighth inning, and each half inning thereafter, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat ninth (9th in FP), tenth (10th in SP, 11th in SP with an EP, or 12th in Co-ed SP with EP’s) in that respective half-inning being placed on second base. The player who is running can be substituted in accordance with the substitution rules.
NOTE: If an incorrect runner in the line-up is placed on second base, this error may be corrected as soon as it is noticed. There is no penalty.

Is this the ITB we all should use? Are there others? Is ASA different, or NSA? How the heck did I and the visitor's fans and coaches all get the wrong person for the runner at second? OK I know that it's not a stretch for the fans and most coaches to not have a clue, but what they said absolutely matched what I thought was correct. Where did I go wrong???

AAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - who was on second had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. bottom of the second ITB inning 1st batter pop flies trying to hit a homer, second sacrifices runner to third, third batter strikes out looking at a belt high fastball down the gut.

[Skahtboi]

That is the ITB as I know it.

[CecilOne]

Your partner is correct, and all use the definition you quoted from the ISF book.
Should be in the State clinic notes, as a State adoption.

As such, it is a Tie Breaker Rule, not ITB.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Your partner is correct, and all use the definition you quoted from the ISF book.
Should be in the State clinic notes, as a State adoption.

As such, it is a Tie Breaker Rule, not ITB.

Not necessarily.

The runner which is to be placed on second that which occupies the slot in the batting order immediately above the first batter of the inning.

If that slot is empty (due to a shorthanded rule), you go to the next slot above that one.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not necessarily.

The runner which is to be placed on second that which occupies the slot in the batting order immediately above the first batter of the inning.

If that slot is empty (due to a shorthanded rule), you go to the next slot above that one.

Yes,
Plater due up furthest in the batting order from the lead off batter for that inning.
That's the way I look at it.

I think all the "last out", "last batted out" confusion comes from some travel ball rules concerning Courtesy Runners (not Tie-Breaker Runner).

[derwil]

Thanks for the info......

I was surprised that what I thought was correct was not so. Weird that this is not in the Fed manuals but it is in ASA and NSA manuals.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not necessarily.

The runner which is to be placed on second that which occupies the slot in the batting order immediately above the first batter of the inning.

If that slot is empty (due to a shorthanded rule), you go to the next slot above that one.

I could be semanticly particular and say that "the last batter in the lineup for the inning" by referencing the inning rather than the whole game would mean whoever is left existing in the batting order, but I won't as you are correct.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I could be semanticly particular and say that "the last batter in the lineup for the inning" by referencing the inning rather than the whole game would mean whoever is left existing in the batting order, but I won't as you are correct.

I agree and used to define just as that. Unfortunately, there would still be questions as everyone thinks they have a TWP that would circumvent it.

There are multiple ways to define it, unfortunately it seems that no matter how simple it is offered, there is always someone who doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by derwil

I'm a newish umpire looking for clarification. Finals of a local HS tournament tonight I have the plate. Two top ten in the state teams playing

Congratulations on the game assignment. Just wondering, how does a "newish umpire" who is not sure of the rules obtain such a choice gig?

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

Congratulations on the game assignment. Just wondering, how does a "newish umpire" who is not sure of the rules obtain such a choice gig?

At the risk of speaking on behalf of the OP, I would bet that this is probably a smallish weekend tournament sponsored by a school, not a playoff assignment.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

At the risk of speaking on behalf of the OP, I would bet that this is probably a smallish weekend tournament sponsored by a school, not a playoff assignment.

That very well could have been the case.

[derwil]

Actually, this was a smallish tournament of approximately 20 teams. More pulled out due to the tornados that ransacked the state last week. Although the tournament was mid-size, most of the teams were in the top 10 in the state in their respective classes, including 7/10 in 6A, our largest classification. Last year I was on the plate for the final of a 60 team tournament that pitted the state's #1 6A team vs. the #1 5A team. I've been to our state camp, local college camp, ASA National camp and I've been selected for an ASA National this year. I've called the Area tournament all three years I've been umpiring, last year and this year I was selected for the regional tournament and hopefully state this year. This is not to toot my own horn but simply to say that my mechanics and on field ability are solid. I am still working on not only book knowledge of the rules, but also the application of these rules (case book vs. rules book).

Still, being a newer umpire I do get confused over the details of some rules sections, which is why I posted the question on this board. Hoping to gain some additional insight as to how I may have gotten confused was the main reason for the OP, not to confirm the procedure for ITB (or TBR as some abbreviate it).

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by derwil

Actually, this was a smallish tournament of approximately 20 teams. More pulled out due to the tornados that ransacked the state last week. Although the tournament was mid-size, most of the teams were in the top 10 in the state in their respective classes, including 7/10 in 6A, our largest classification. Last year I was on the plate for the final of a 60 team tournament that pitted the state's #1 6A team vs. the #1 5A team. I've been to our state camp, local college camp, ASA National camp and I've been selected for an ASA National this year. I've called the Area tournament all three years I've been umpiring, last year and this year I was selected for the regional tournament and hopefully state this year. This is not to toot my own horn but simply to say that my mechanics and on field ability are solid. I am still working on not only book knowledge of the rules, but also the application of these rules (case book vs. rules book).

Still, being a newer umpire I do get confused over the details of some rules sections, which is why I posted the question on this board. Hoping to gain some additional insight as to how I may have gotten confused was the main reason for the OP, not to confirm the procedure for ITB (or TBR as some abbreviate it).

Derwil,

Hang in there and keep reading the rules book. Continue asking questions and if you have the time and are not working games, head out to some of the games that are being umpired by the veterans in your association.

This forum is an excellent source of information.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by derwil

Sec. 6. TIE-BREAKER.
Starting with the top of the eighth inning, and each half inning thereafter, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat ninth (9th in FP), tenth (10th in SP, 11th in SP with an EP, or 12th in Co-ed SP with EP’s) in that respective half-inning being placed on second base. The player who is running can be substituted in accordance with the substitution rules.
NOTE: If an incorrect runner in the line-up is placed on second base, this error may be corrected as soon as it is noticed. There is no penalty.

NFHS SP uses the tie-breaker rule? Do any states actually play slow pitch as a high school sport?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

NFHS SP uses the tie-breaker rule? Do any states actually play slow pitch as a high school sport?

NFHS SP requires state adoption of game ending rules, just like FP.

Last I heard, Mississippi plays NFHS slow pitch in the fall (FP in the spring).