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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 08:56am
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Tie Breaker

ASA Tie Breaker Rule being used in NFHS game (Adoption in MN)

This may be an old discussion, but I am relatively new to this board, so here goes.

Situation: Top of 8th, tie breaker being used, fourth batter in the order is scheduled to lead off. Coach 'misunderstands' the PU when the PU tells the coach that the 9th scheduled batter in the order should start at second base. Coach sends ninth batter in the batting order to second base to start the inning. Defense realizes immediately that the incorrect player is on second. Batter, fourth in the order, sacs the incorrect runner to third. Defense now appeals that the incorrect runner is on third.

What, if any, is the penalty to the offensive team?

Thanks for educating us.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 09:02am
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First, in my game, I'm checking with scorekeeper (not coach) to see what the uniform number is for the player that is supposed to go to 2nd base, and telling coach, "Put number 6 on 2nd base", and then watching to make sure that #6 is, in fact, on 2nd base.

If, however, I am not doing my duty, or coach slips one past me, the only way to treat this is as a substitution (which may be legal or illegal, depending on the status and previous actions of the player that ends up being put out there, and depending on the ruleset we are using). So, not knowing any of this in your sitch, I don't think we can answer the question.

But whatever your ruleset, if this happens, treat it as if #6 was actually on base after a double, and coach pulled her and put in the person he put in... if legal, great, you have a substutition. If not, treat accordingly.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 09:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
First, in my game, I'm checking with scorekeeper (not coach) to see what the uniform number is for the player that is supposed to go to 2nd base, and telling coach, "Put number 6 on 2nd base", and then watching to make sure that #6 is, in fact, on 2nd base.
Agreed, and that is what I instructed my co-workers to do in the future. But I also confirm with the opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
If, however, I am not doing my duty, or coach slips one past me, the only way to treat this is as a substitution (which may be legal or illegal, depending on the status and previous actions of the player that ends up being put out there, and depending on the ruleset we are using). So, not knowing any of this in your sitch, I don't think we can answer the question.
Incorrect player on second base was a starter in the ninth position in the batting order and had never left the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
But whatever your ruleset, if this happens, treat it as if #6 was actually on base after a double, and coach pulled her and put in the person he put in... if legal, great, you have a substutition. If not, treat accordingly.
With this in mind, using NFHS 3-4-2-c-Pen, we should have the illegal substitue restricted and all play stands. I'm guessing that the proper player should now be place on third, since we have had a legal or illegal pitch thrown?
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 09:36am
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MNBLUE...

I assume this was in a tournament?

I would apply the ASA POE on this as follows:
Quote:
It is the resonsibility of the umpire and scorekeeper to notify the teams involved as to what player starts at second base. If the wrong player is placed on the base and it is brought to the umpire's attention, there is no penalty. Correct the error and place the correct person on the base. This should occur whether a pitch has been thrown, or if the runner has advanced a base.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 09:49am
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Yes, it was at the Henry Sibley tournament last weekend. I like that answer better.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
I would apply the ASA POE on this as follows:
Why should we accept responsibility in an NFHS game because it says so in an ASA POE? It's the coach's responsibility.

The runner at 2nd in ITB is in essence a simulated double. The runner at 2nd therefore batted out of order, no penalty because a pitch was thrown. That makes the proper batter whoever is #1 in the lineup, not the "fourth batter in the order ", so the fourth batter in the order is now BOO. The appeal follows the fourth batter in the order completing a TAB, so the #1 batter is out and the #2 batter is up with the runner remaining at 3rd.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 11:02am
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[QUOTE=CecilOne]Why should we accept responsibility in an NFHS game because it says so in an ASA POE? It's the coach's responsibility.
QUOTE]

The problem involves a cross over of codes, since for whatever reason (mostly speeding up the game), the MSHSL allows the use of the ASA ITB in weekend invitational tournaments. With no rule for the ITB in the NFHS book, the problem of how to handle irregularities arises, since we have a ASA rule being used in an NFHS game. I understand your point, but since the Fed rule book doesn't address the ITB, I think we need to fall back to the ASA book and all the interpretations that go with it.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 11:06am
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[QUOTE=MNBlue]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Why should we accept responsibility in an NFHS game because it says so in an ASA POE? It's the coach's responsibility.
QUOTE]

The problem involves a cross over of codes, since for whatever reason (mostly speeding up the game), the MSHSL allows the use of the ASA ITB in weekend invitational tournaments. With no rule for the ITB in the NFHS book, the problem of how to handle irregularities arises, since we have a ASA rule being used in an NFHS game. I understand your point, but since the Fed rule book doesn't address the ITB, I think we need to fall back to the ASA book and all the interpretations that go with it.
Then whatever is specified in the State adoption applies and ours does not reference the ASA POE. If "MSHSL allows the use of the ASA ITB " does, my apology.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne
Why should we accept responsibility in an NFHS game because it says so in an ASA POE? It's the coach's responsibility.

The runner at 2nd in ITB is in essence a simulated double. The runner at 2nd therefore batted out of order, no penalty because a pitch was thrown. That makes the proper batter whoever is #1 in the lineup, not the "fourth batter in the order ", so the fourth batter in the order is now BOO. The appeal follows the fourth batter in the order completing a TAB, so the #1 batter is out and the #2 batter is up with the runner remaining at 3rd.
The Minnesota Manual for Athletic Officials states the responsibility clearly, it just does not elaborate on situations like the ASA POE. From the MN Officials Manual:
Quote:
E. Tie-Breaker Rule: In the event that the International Tie Breaker rule is used the following procedures shall apply: At the start of the inning in which the tie-breaker rule is used, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat last in the respective half inning being placed on second base (e.g., if the number 5 batter is the lead off batter, the number 4 batter in the batting order will be placed on second base). The umpire and scorekeeper will determine that the proper runner has been placed at second base and the inning shall begin.
Using the ASA POE is a reasonable way for the umpire to handle his own mistake unless or until there is an official interp from the state.
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Old Mon Apr 24, 2006, 11:12am
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OK, as I said, being in the State adoption in MN is fine and I apologized, just that ours does not say that.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 07:59am
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One thing I don't like is the wording that the PU used in this case. "9th scheduled batter should start on 2nd base" I know what he/she meant, whoever will bat 9th this inning, but the 9th scheduled batter is whoever the 9th batter on the lineup card is can be an easy mistake.

Wording I use is to official scorekeeper, or home team if no official book "who is due up this inning? (#4) ok, who bats before her in the lineup? (#6) Ok then let's place #6 on 2nd base." Then I check with the other teams book, "you got #4 up to bat and #6 is in the lineup spot before her, right?" (yes) Ok then we have #6 on 2nd to start this inning.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED
Wording I use is to official scorekeeper, or home team if no official book "who is due up this inning? (#4) ok, who bats before her in the lineup? (#6) Ok then let's place #6 on 2nd base." Then I check with the other teams book, "you got #4 up to bat and #6 is in the lineup spot before her, right?" (yes) Ok then we have #6 on 2nd to start this inning.
Good idea to make sure both books agree. I also check my lineup. I've had too many scorekeepers confuse the situation.
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Old Tue Apr 25, 2006, 01:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED
One thing I don't like is the wording that the PU used in this case. "9th scheduled batter should start on 2nd base" I know what he/she meant, whoever will bat 9th this inning, but the 9th scheduled batter is whoever the 9th batter on the lineup card is can be an easy mistake.

Wording I use is to official scorekeeper, or home team if no official book "who is due up this inning? (#4) ok, who bats before her in the lineup? (#6) Ok then let's place #6 on 2nd base." Then I check with the other teams book, "you got #4 up to bat and #6 is in the lineup spot before her, right?" (yes) Ok then we have #6 on 2nd to start this inning.
It actually says "scheduled to bat last in that half-inning"; with no mention of any number so less confusing.
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Old Wed Apr 26, 2006, 12:07pm
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Not the last out.

Some umpires around here like to say the last out of the prior inning goes to second. That can get you in trouble too if the last out wasn't made by the player who last completed her turn at bat. For example:
R1 on second, R2 on first. B1 grounds to F5 who takes the force on R1 at third.
B1 should be the runner at second in the ITB.
Fun times for FED umpires who don't work ASA in the summer
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Old Thu Apr 27, 2006, 07:37am
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I just wish that the FHSAA
(which uses Federation rules)
would adopt the tie breaker rule !
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