International Tie Breaker

[derwil]

I'm a newish umpire looking for clarification. Finals of a local HS tournament tonight I have the plate. Two top ten in the state teams playing and time runs out with the score tied. We go to ITB. I was taught that the runner @ second was the last batted out. Visitors place their runner on second and score her, 3 outs move to the bottom of the inning. Visiting coach puts the last out on second, which was a runner caught stealing second. Fans from visitor's team and coaches are yelling "last batted out". I check with home coach and get it straightened out, or so I thought. The last batted out goes to second, who was then subbed for - 1 run scores and we move to the second inning of ITB.

Partner comes up between innings and says that it's not the last batted out that runs at second, it's the last batter in the lineup for the inning. If #4 batter is up, #3 batter is running. I tell him that's not how I was taught, both coaches are now on board with how we are doing it and I'm sure it's correct - We're staying with what we've got. Home team loses in the second inning of ITB when they cannot plate the runner from second.

So.....I called a buddy of mine and he confirmed that I was correct, it's the last batted out that goes on second. Still not 100% sure I go the the Fed rule book. Nada. Go to the state official's manual. Zip. Finally did a search on the ISF rules page and find Rule 5 Section 6:

Sec. 6. TIE-BREAKER.
Starting with the top of the eighth inning, and each half inning thereafter, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat ninth (9th in FP), tenth (10th in SP, 11th in SP with an EP, or 12th in Co-ed SP with EP’s) in that respective half-inning being placed on second base. The player who is running can be substituted in accordance with the substitution rules.
NOTE: If an incorrect runner in the line-up is placed on second base, this error may be corrected as soon as it is noticed. There is no penalty.

Is this the ITB we all should use? Are there others? Is ASA different, or NSA? How the heck did I and the visitor's fans and coaches all get the wrong person for the runner at second? OK I know that it's not a stretch for the fans and most coaches to not have a clue, but what they said absolutely matched what I thought was correct. Where did I go wrong???

AAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - who was on second had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. bottom of the second ITB inning 1st batter pop flies trying to hit a homer, second sacrifices runner to third, third batter strikes out looking at a belt high fastball down the gut.

[Skahtboi]

That is the ITB as I know it.

[CecilOne]

Your partner is correct, and all use the definition you quoted from the ISF book.
Should be in the State clinic notes, as a State adoption.

As such, it is a Tie Breaker Rule, not ITB.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Your partner is correct, and all use the definition you quoted from the ISF book.
Should be in the State clinic notes, as a State adoption.

As such, it is a Tie Breaker Rule, not ITB.

Not necessarily.

The runner which is to be placed on second that which occupies the slot in the batting order immediately above the first batter of the inning.

If that slot is empty (due to a shorthanded rule), you go to the next slot above that one.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not necessarily.

The runner which is to be placed on second that which occupies the slot in the batting order immediately above the first batter of the inning.

If that slot is empty (due to a shorthanded rule), you go to the next slot above that one.

Yes,
Plater due up furthest in the batting order from the lead off batter for that inning.
That's the way I look at it.

I think all the "last out", "last batted out" confusion comes from some travel ball rules concerning Courtesy Runners (not Tie-Breaker Runner).

[derwil]

Thanks for the info......

I was surprised that what I thought was correct was not so. Weird that this is not in the Fed manuals but it is in ASA and NSA manuals.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by derwil

Thanks for the info......

I was surprised that what I thought was correct was not so. Weird that this is not in the Fed manuals but it is in ASA and NSA manuals.

That's because NFHS doesn't use the tie-breaker, but does allow state associations to institute a tie breaking procedure for their own association (4.2.6)

[argodad]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That's because NFHS doesn't use the tie-breaker, but does allow state associations to institute a tie breaking procedure for their own association (4.2.6)

Run rules and tie breakers are by state adoption in HS. We haven't been able to get a tie-breaker approved in Florida.

Does your state have a tie breaker rule? If so, what inning does it begin? (Gathering info for another tilt at the FHSAA windmill.)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by argodad

...Does your state have a tie breaker rule? If so, what inning does it begin? (Gathering info for another tilt at the FHSAA windmill.)

Yes, but only for weekend HS tournament games, not regular season or playoff games. So, sorry, probably not a lot of help with FHSAA.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by argodad

Run rules and tie breakers are by state adoption in HS. We haven't been able to get a tie-breaker approved in Florida.

Does your state have a tie breaker rule? If so, what inning does it begin? (Gathering info for another tilt at the FHSAA windmill.)

Wish you the best of luck.
Been there, have the tee shirt.

11 i& 9 Innings this year.
18, 15, 12, plus less in others! ;-)

Actually, I really don't care but its fun to gripe about.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by argodad

Run rules and tie breakers are by state adoption in HS. We haven't been able to get a tie-breaker approved in Florida.

Does your state have a tie breaker rule? If so, what inning does it begin? (Gathering info for another tilt at the FHSAA windmill.)

MD - 8th inning
DE - 10th inning

[Dutch Alex]

Last batted out/last out...
I'm not happy:
Why don't we stick to: The last person with a complete turn at bat will be the tie-breaker runner

Last batter flied out or grounded out for the tie > this one runs from second.
Last out on a base (not 1st) on a force > last batter on second; this one has a complete turn at bat...
Lats out on a base (Try to steel/early leave or something like this) > the last one with a complete turn at bat goes running...

B1 flies out,
B2 walks (further to refer to as R1),
B3 grounded out/R1 to 2nd,
B4 at bat with 2-2 count, R1 caught steeling. Tied game.
B3 is the tie-break runner! Was the last one with a complete turn at bat!

Not that difficult, I guess. (All is easy at the moment you understand it )

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

Last batted out/last out...
I'm not happy:
Why don't we stick to: The last person with a complete turn at bat will be the tie-breaker runner

Because that's USUALLY, but not UNIVERSALLY correct.

B1 out. B2 out. B6 hits a home run, B3 ruled out for not batting.

The last person with a complete turn at bat was B6 - but B3 is your runner and B4 your first batter.

[tcannizzo]

ASA 18A Qualifier this weekend.
We got to the 8th inning in 1:25 scoreless.
During the game each of the coaches mentioned to me (separately) that their team had just not been hitting all weekend.

I told them that if we get to the 15th inning and still scoreless that the ITB would be modified, starting with Bases Loaded and a 3-0 count on B.
Someone is going to score!!!!
Of course, just kidding around with them to get some chuckles.
Fortunately home team scored in Bot 8.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Because that's USUALLY, but not UNIVERSALLY correct.

B1 out. B2 out. B6 hits a home run, B3 ruled out for not batting.

The last person with a complete turn at bat was B6 - but B3 is your runner and B4 your first batter.

Not by my book. I would have B6 as the runner; I think that's within ISF. Will check that though...