IF has precedence

[Tru_in_Blu]

Hi,

I'm trying to understand the "precedence" impact of the IF in relation to an intentionally dropped fair fly ball.

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner is out.

J. When an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball, including a line drive or
a bunt, which can be caught with ordinary effort with first, first and second,
first and third or first, second and third bases occupied with fewer than two
outs.

EFFECT: Dead ball, runners must return to the last base touched at the time
of the pitch. If an infield fly is ruled, it has precedence over an intentionally
dropped ball.

Does this mean that if an IF has [or should have] been called, that a dead ball should NOT be called in the event an infielder intentionally drops a fair popup?

What is the difference, if any, in rule application resulting from a popup on the infield:
less than 2 outs, runners on first and third [no IF called]
less than 2 outs, runners on first and second [IF should be called]

I know an IF can't be called in appropriate situation on a line drive or a bunt that is popped up.

Thanx.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Hi,

I'm trying to understand the "precedence" impact of the IF in relation to an intentionally dropped fair fly ball.

Rule 8, Section 2 Batter-Runner is out.

J. When an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball, including a line drive or
a bunt, which can be caught with ordinary effort with first, first and second,
first and third or first, second and third bases occupied with fewer than two
outs.

EFFECT: Dead ball, runners must return to the last base touched at the time
of the pitch. If an infield fly is ruled, it has precedence over an intentionally
dropped ball.

Does this mean that if an IF has [or should have] been called, that a dead ball should NOT be called in the event an infielder intentionally drops a fair popup?

That's exactly the case. If you have an infield fly that is intentionally dropped, the dead ball should not be called. In both the IFF and IDB, the batter-runner is out. The difference is that the IFF keeps the ball live, allowing runners to advance at their own risk. The runners (and, presumably, their base coaches) should know the game situation, and should know when an IFF is in effect.

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

What is the difference, if any, in rule application resulting from a popup on the infield:
less than 2 outs, runners on first and third [no IF called]
less than 2 outs, runners on first and second [IF should be called]

I know an IF can't be called in appropriate situation on a line drive or a bunt that is popped up.

Thanx.

I'm not sure what you're asking us here. Are you asking us if there's a difference in the Intentionally Dropped Ball rule in those situations? If that's the case, then no.

In every case of an intentionally dropped ball, the ball is immediately dead, and the batter-runner is called out (8-2-J). All runners must return to their bases (8-2-J and 8-6-H).

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm not sure what you're asking us here. Are you asking us if there's a difference in the Intentionally Dropped Ball rule in those situations? If that's the case, then no.

In every case of an intentionally dropped ball, the ball is immediately dead, and the batter-runner is called out (8-2-J). All runners must return to their bases (8-2-J and 8-6-H).

Thanx for the reply. I think I have it, but yet, in your words:

In every case of an intentionally dropped ball, the ball is immediately dead, and the batter-runner is called out.

...EXCEPT for those occasions where an IF is in effect. Yeah?

That's the part I am getting stuck on.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thanx for the reply. I think I have it, but yet, in your words:

In every case of an intentionally dropped ball, the ball is immediately dead, and the batter-runner is called out.

...EXCEPT for those occasions where an IF is in effect. Yeah?

That's the part I am getting stuck on.

Well, if the IFF rule takes precedence, then it's not an IDB.

You're correct, I phrased that poorly.

What I SHOULD have said was "in every case when the intentionally dropped ball rule is invoked, the ball is immediately dead, and the batter-runner is called out."

I apologize for the confusion.

[CecilOne]

Which reminds me to ask about the intent of the IDB rule. To be intentionally dropped, it had to be caught, which means the batter is already out.

Without the dead ball, a drop by an infielder allows any runner(s) more time to advance.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Which reminds me to ask about the intent of the IDB rule. To be intentionally dropped, it had to be caught, which means the batter is already out.

Without the dead ball, a drop by an infielder allows any runner(s) more time to advance.

I've always thought it was because a catch and intentional drop looks a lot like a drop and the runners are going to have trouble knowing whether they are forced or not. Don't know if that's right.
________
Gape_Anusx live

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Thanx for the reply. I think I have it, but yet, in your words:

In every case of an intentionally dropped ball, the ball is immediately dead, and the batter-runner is called out.

...EXCEPT for those occasions where an IF is in effect. Yeah?

That's the part I am getting stuck on.

Look at it this way, they are basically the same rule with the same effect.

Purpose of the rule: to not place the offense at a disadvantage when the defense could gain an easy double/triple play by NOT performing in an ordinary and routine manner.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I think I've only called Intentionally Dropped Ball once. Situation was runner on first, less than 2 outs. Batter hit a line drive [not a screamer] to F6's left. As he moved toward 2B, he caught the ball knee high, let it drop, and then picked it up, stepped on 2B and threw to 1B for what he thought was a pretty slick DP.

Runner on first did the 2 or 3 steps off first with the swing, saw the path of the ball and the fielder catching it and was scrambling back to 1B.

After I ruled, F6 was livid. Reason he & his coach gave me was that this was the church league and they don't play that way and the fact that he had a new glove. Nice try, don't cry, next batter!

I've also had a few where infielders let a popup fall when they know a particularly slow BR hit it and also let soft line drives become trapped when a catch would have been just a easy. These typically happen in the slow pitch game when infielders think they can get a DP.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Look at it this way, they are basically the same rule with the same effect.

Purpose of the rule: to not place the offense at a disadvantage when the defense could gain an easy double/triple play by NOT performing in an ordinary and routine manner.

I generally agree. The only point I would disagree with is "the same effect". One has a dead ball and the other keeps the ball live.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I've also had a few where infielders let a popup fall when they know a particularly slow BR hit it and also let soft line drives become trapped when a catch would have been just a easy. These typically happen in the slow pitch game when infielders think they can get a DP.

And they can, no? An IDB requires the ball to be caught, yes?
________
ALLforYOU cam

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I generally agree. The only point I would disagree with is "the same effect". One has a dead ball and the other keeps the ball live.

The same effect is the BR is out and all forces have been removed.

With an IF, the BR is out and declared so prior to any opportunity for a play, deceptive or otherwise, so runners are free to advance at their own risk KNOWING they are not forced. The IDB cannot be called untill there is an actual play upon which the runners generally are returning to their base.

If you kill the ball on an IF, you are possibly penalizing the offended team. It is extremely remote that would occur on an IDB.

I have no problem with the two rules and their respective effect.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by youngump

And they can, no? An IDB requires the ball to be caught, yes?

That is correct.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The same effect is the BR is out and all forces have been removed.

With an IF, the BR is out and declared so prior to any opportunity for a play, deceptive or otherwise, so runners are free to advance at their own risk KNOWING they are not forced. The IDB cannot be called untill there is an actual play upon which the runners generally are returning to their base.

If you kill the ball on an IF, you are possibly penalizing the offended team. It is extremely remote that would occur on an IDB.

I have no problem with the two rules and their respective effect.

Got it. The "effect" I thought you were referring to was "EFFECT:" in the rules.

I think I have the precedence thing clarified. Thanx folks.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I've also had a few where infielders let a popup fall when they know a particularly slow BR hit it...when infielders think they can get a DP.

If the infielder allows the ball to drop to the ground untouched this is NOT an intentionally dropped ball...in order to have an intentionally dropped ball the ball must first be caught. If the ball isn't touched it can't be dropped.

I may have misunderstood the part I quoted but it sounded like the ball was never touched.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

If the infielder allows the ball to drop to the ground untouched this is NOT an intentionally dropped ball...in order to have an intentionally dropped ball the ball must first be caught. If the ball isn't touched it can't be dropped.

I may have misunderstood the part I quoted but it sounded like the ball was never touched.

We are in agreement. "Guiding" a ball to the ground or flat out letting it drop [a bit risky sometimes w/ the backspin] is not an IDB.