Fed pitching question

[Little Jimmy]

I work for a variety of organizations (Fed, USSSA, NCAA small college). At this weekends Utrip meeting a pitching violation was discussed. It differs from what the Feds say. I wonder what you interpret/rule.

Pitcher stands behind pitching plate, puts her hands together and then steps on the rubber, keeping hands together. Fed casebook 6.1.1 says this is illegal as per Fed 6-1-1a. Utrip also says this is illegal unless pitcher backs off rubber or calls time. Fed seems to say illegal no matter what.

In Fed, when is the illegal pitch called? At the moment the pitcher steps on the rubber with hands together? Utrip would call for waiting until the pitch is delivered (giving the pitcher a chance to step back and negate the pitch), and then going with delayed dead ball if pitch is indeed delivered. What about other orgs? I don't have my NCAA manual with me.What do you do?

[txtrooper]

Jimmy, in ASA and Fed I make the call (delayed dead ball) when the infraction is committed. Stepping on the pitching rubber with the hands together is an illegal act and I believe that it should be called immediately. Stepping off the rubber does not negate the infraction in ASA or Fed ball, as far as I can remember. In the event that the pitcher fails to deliver the pitch, I will call time and make the proper award.

[Tex]

That is an illegal pitch in my area for the mentioned organizations that can't be un-done. Illegal pitch is called immediately.

[CecilOne]

Other pieces of the NFHS rules:

6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over.

OR
5-1-1p "Ball becomes dead immediately (p) when an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter."

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Other pieces of the NFHS rules:

6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over.

"

Just so I am clear, you are not suggesting that a pitcher can step back once she has stepped on with hands together and negate the illegal pitch are you?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Just so I am clear, you are not suggesting that a pitcher can step back once she has stepped on with hands together and negate the illegal pitch are you?

I'm suggesting the rules are not clear/consistent.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I attended clinics this past weekend on both ASA and NFHS.

On this particular subject, we've always been instructed to call the illegal pitch when it occurs. In the case of a pitcher stepping on the pitcher's plate w/ hands together, the concensus in both sessions is that once you verbalize the illegal pitch, 95% of the time no pitch will be forthcoming.

I haven't personally called this one many times, but the few times that I did, the pitcher did not follow through with a pitch.

The ones I've missed a couple of times are the double touches that happen from an otherwise compliant pitcher. For whatever reason, she'll do that double touch, and I'm caught a bit off-guard. Did she just do that? Then I have to pay more attention the next time. Windy days are easier, because I almost expect a pitcher to adjust a wisp of hair that might have been blown out of place.

[Andy]

Good discussion regarding this topic on the NFHS board....

NFHS does not have the specific exception that USSSA does for negating the illegal act of stepping on the pitchers plate with both hands together.

I believe it is an illegal pitch, delayed dead ball, but you still allow the pitcher to deliver the pitch...the batter could put the ball in play and gain a better result than the penalty for the illegal pitch.

Don't take an opportunity away from the offense for a defensive infraction.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

Good discussion regarding this topic on the NFHS board....

NFHS Forum: illegal pitch

[DaveASA/FED]

I agree to allow the pitch to continue, but you should signal illegal once the pitch becomes illegal, so once F1 steps on the pitching plate with hands together you should signal DDB and say "illegal" that is not preventing F1 from pitching it is letting everyone know that the pitch is illegal at that point. If F1 delivers the pitch the batter has the right to hit it, if not then make the ball dead and enforce the illegal pitch.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I'm suggesting the rules are not clear/consistent.

Where do you see the confusion? 6.f.2 allows a way to legally remove yourself from the pitching position once you have brought your hands together, it doesn't erase illegal actions you have already done.

5-1-1p states to call dead ball and award for the illegal pitch if the pitch is not thrown. I don't see where the confusion is.

[robbie]

In NSA, we have nothing until the pitch has started (The pitch starts when the hands are separated or the pitcher makes any motion that is part of his / her wind-up.)
How could it be an illegal pitch if the pitch has not started?
I would make note of the non-compliance with "Shall take a position...hands shall be separated..." Then when F1 STARTS the pitch, my left arm would go out. I'm sure I'm supposed to verbalize at that point, but I don't. Pitch will come and we will deal with IP as described in rules.

[DaveASA/FED]

In ASA and NFHS in the preliminaries section it states the pitcher shall step onto the pitching plate with the hands seperated, if not the effect is an illegal pitch. It doesn't state the pitch has to be started, it doesn't state the pitch has to be released, once they break a rule that has an effect of illegal pitch, the pitch becomes illegal.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I'm suggesting the rules are not clear/consistent.

Hey Man - I know you read the NFHS board which just pointed out the NFHS casebook play - which is very clear!
6.1.1 A

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

In ASA and NFHS in the preliminaries section it states the pitcher shall step onto the pitching plate with the hands seperated,
(snip)

Speaking NFHS - Not exactly -

The Rule:
6-1
Article A: Prior to starting the delivery (pitch), the pitcher shall take a position with the pivot foot on or partially on the top surface of the pitcher's plate and the non-pivot foot in contact with or behind the pitcher's plate. Both feet must be on the ground within or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate

Hmmmmmm so far nothing about the hands UNTILL:

a.
Prior to pitching the pitcher must take a position with the shoulder's in line with first and third base with the ball in the glove or pitching hand and the hands separated

The underlined parts are what everyone is discussing.
As worded an argument can be made that the pitch does not become illegal UNTILL the pitch starts.

I haven't looked this up in ASA, but FED answers the question directly in their Case Book (6.1.1.A) stating : May F1 take her position with her hands together? - NO F1's hands must be apart when she steps on the pitcher's plate.