Fed pitching question

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Hey Man - I know you read the NFHS board which just pointed out the NFHS casebook play - which is very clear!
6.1.1 A

What about:
"6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over." ?

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

What about:
"6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over." ?

I would say that the case book makes it clear that the illegal pitch has already occurred, wouldn't you?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

What about:
"6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over." ?

I believe it means that nothing else that was illegal has occured to that point. If you have hands together and step on the pitching plate, you have committed a violation. And you will be ticketed.

[Little Jimmy]

Thanks for all the replys. My day has been crazy busy and this is the first time I've had a chance to respond. As stated by some, Fed casebook 6.1.1 is cut and dry..."F1's hands shall be apart when she steps onto the pitcher's plate. Therefore, this is an illegal pitch." There seems to be no ifs, ands or buts about it. But there is a difference between the clarity of the casebook and the wording of the rulebook. I'm not thinking that delayed dead ball works here. If it is illegal and there is no way to make it legal (as per Fed), then why let thie pitch be delivered? Spit on the ball...dead ball, no pitch permitted . Take a nail file out of her pants and jab the ball...dead ball, no pitch permitted. It seeems like Fed is saying this infraction is like that, even though they aren't clear rulebook wise.

I think I'll pose the question to my state interpreter and see if he can get some info at the national office.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

Thanks for all the replys. My day has been crazy busy and this is the first time I've had a chance to respond. As stated by some, Fed casebook 6.1.1 is cut and dry..."F1's hands shall be apart when she steps onto the pitcher's plate. Therefore, this is an illegal pitch." There seems to be no ifs, ands or buts about it. But there is a difference between the clarity of the casebook and the wording of the rulebook. I'm not thinking that delayed dead ball works here. If it is illegal and there is no way to make it legal (as per Fed), then why let thie pitch be delivered? Spit on the ball...dead ball, no pitch permitted . Take a nail file out of her pants and jab the ball...dead ball, no pitch permitted. It seeems like Fed is saying this infraction is like that, even though they aren't clear rulebook wise.

I think I'll pose the question to my state interpreter and see if he can get some info at the national office.

I think this is serious overkill here.

It is a DDB. If the pitcher stops at that point and there is no pitch imminent, kill it and apply the appropriate rule.

But if the pitcher doesn't stop and continues with a pitch, are you prepared to tell the batter that the ball she just hit over the fence doesn't count because you don't believe the pitch should be allowed?

There are reasons an IP is a DDB and this is one of them.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think this is serious overkill here.

It is a DDB. If the pitcher stops at that point and there is no pitch imminent, kill it and apply the appropriate rule.

But if the pitcher doesn't stop and continues with a pitch, are you prepared to tell the batter that the ball she just hit over the fence doesn't count because you don't believe the pitch should be allowed?

There are reasons an IP is a DDB and this is one of them.

Even though I logically and philosophically agree, the official word for NFHS in Delaware is Immediate DB and the pitch is dead regardless of thrown or not, along with the other Article 1 infractions.

The ASA book does not say the pitcher can remove herself, so it would seem ths same applies, unless you are decreeing otherwise.

[RKBUmp]

Under the FED dead ball table it does say immediate dead ball, "IF NOT RELEASED". How can the pitch ever be released if the umpire kills the play the moment the pitcher steps on the pitching plate?

[DaveASA/FED]

Well this is a case of different interps your "expert" says kill it once it's illegal, which is only specifically stated in the rule book under a few conditions, this is not one of them. The "expert" I have talked to says call the illegal pitch signal DDB, if pitcher throws let it be thrown, (as Irish states why take the chance for the offense take the free shot at the ball?) if not then kill it and award accordingly.

[DaveASA/FED]

From March 2008 Plays and Clarifications on the ASA website.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

This has the runner leaving early added into it, and the IP was for double touching not stepping onto the pitching plate with the hands together, but I would use this in the same manner to support calling the IP when it occurs then allowing the pitcher to throw the pitch. If they do not throw the pitch then kill it and make the award, as has already been discussed.

I know this is an ASA interpretation and the OP was dealing with FED but I would bet FED is on the same page.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

From March 2008 Plays and Clarifications on the ASA website.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

This has the runner leaving early added into it, and the IP was for double touching not stepping onto the pitching plate with the hands together, but I would use this in the same manner to support calling the IP when it occurs then allowing the pitcher to throw the pitch. If they do not throw the pitch then kill it and make the award, as has already been discussed.

I know this is an ASA interpretation and the OP was dealing with FED but I would bet FED is on the same page.

Wrong violation. The OP here pertains to a pitcher not having the hands separated when stepping on the PP (6.1.a), NFHS does not.

Double touch or stepping off are other subjects.

[Little Jimmy]

I'll beat this dead horse one more time. My only point/question in the whole thing is this: what is the ruling Fed wants? I don't have a pipeline to the head honchos so I need to go my normal route (post here, read, ask the locals, ask the state interpreter). It either is an immediate dead ball or it's a delayed dead ball, but not take your choice. One or the other. And I would agree with Irish that a ball hit over the fence would be a rough one to hang your hat on and say the pitch wasn't allowed to begin with. All the more reason in knowing when Fed wants the illegality called:immediately (dead ball with immediate penalty) or after the play (delayed dead ball with coach choosing play or penalty).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

I'll beat this dead horse one more time. My only point/question in the whole thing is this: what is the ruling Fed wants? I don't have a pipeline to the head honchos so I need to go my normal route (post here, read, ask the locals, ask the state interpreter). It either is an immediate dead ball or it's a delayed dead ball, but not take your choice. One or the other. And I would agree with Irish that a ball hit over the fence would be a rough one to hang your hat on and say the pitch wasn't allowed to begin with. All the more reason in knowing when Fed wants the illegality called:immediately (dead ball with immediate penalty) or after the play (delayed dead ball with coach choosing play or penalty).

I think you have missed the several voices speaking to an option you have not stated. The pitch is called illegal as soon as it becomes illegal; that part is clear in absolutely EVERY version of softball that exists. Since NFHS has declared this cannot be corrected, you call it "Illegal" as soon as she steps on the pitching plate with hands together. It is NEVER called illegal AFTER there is a play; it is only called "dead" after a play.

If called illegal immediately, as required, it is almost a no-brainer that there won't be a following pitch. I suspect THAT is the point of the DE interpretor, because there is absolutely no rules basis to declare the ball dead immediately in any violation of Articles 6-1. In fact, the only illegal pitch that clearly spells out "dead ball immediately" is a violation of 6-2-2, applying a substance to the ball, or failing to wipe the hand before contacting the ball after licking the fingers.

So, in absence of any definitive ruling that clearly supercedes 5-1-2-a, that ALL illegal pitches are delayed dead balls (like there is for 6-2-2), then ALL OTHER illegal pitches are delayed dead balls.

Again, the proper mechanic is call it immediately when it becomes illegal. When the pitcher steps on the pitching plate with hands together, verbalize "Illegal Pitch", and hold out the delayed dead ball signal. If, as will happen 99.9% of the time, the pitcher stops in her tracks, then declare "Dead Ball", and announce the penalty. In the the 0.1% of the time where she goes ahead a throws a pitch anyway, wait until all play ends, and give the offensive coach the option.

While you may consider this rule similar to 6-2-2, there is nothing in the NFHS rulebook or casebook that says to treat this differently than every other illegal pitch (other than 6-2-2).

[HugoTafurst]

In another thread, this is posted:

From March 2008 Plays and Clarifications on the ASA website.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch
************************************************** ********

I think I first became aware of this ruling 2 years ago and I don't quite understand the part about ruling the runner out for leaving early.
My thinking has been that there are many illegal pitches which can actually cause (if that is the correct word) the runner to leave early.

Don't runners time their leaving a base to the pitcher?
Isn't it reasonable to think that it is this illegal infraction could be the cqause of the runner leaving early?

Just wondering if I'm way off base on this one?

I know the case ruling, just seems funny to me.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I think you have missed the several voices speaking to an option you have not stated. The pitch is called illegal as soon as it becomes illegal; that part is clear in absolutely EVERY version of softball that exists. Since NFHS has declared this cannot be corrected, you call it "Illegal" as soon as she steps on the pitching plate with hands together. It is NEVER called illegal AFTER there is a play; it is only called "dead" after a play.

If called illegal immediately, as required, it is almost a no-brainer that there won't be a following pitch. I suspect THAT is the point of the DE interpretor, because there is absolutely no rules basis to declare the ball dead immediately in any violation of Articles 6-1. In fact, the only illegal pitch that clearly spells out "dead ball immediately" is a violation of 6-2-2, applying a substance to the ball, or failing to wipe the hand before contacting the ball after licking the fingers.

So, in absence of any definitive ruling that clearly supercedes 5-1-2-a, that ALL illegal pitches are delayed dead balls (like there is for 6-2-2), then ALL OTHER illegal pitches are delayed dead balls.

Again, the proper mechanic is call it immediately when it becomes illegal. When the pitcher steps on the pitching plate with hands together, verbalize "Illegal Pitch", and hold out the delayed dead ball signal. If, as will happen 99.9% of the time, the pitcher stops in her tracks, then declare "Dead Ball", and announce the penalty. In the the 0.1% of the time where she goes ahead a throws a pitch anyway, wait until all play ends, and give the offensive coach the option.

While you may consider this rule similar to 6-2-2, there is nothing in the NFHS rulebook or casebook that says to treat this differently than every other illegal pitch (other than 6-2-2).

Violations of 6-2-7,8,9 are immediate dead balls as well.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I think I first became aware of this ruling 2 years ago and I don't quite understand the part about ruling the runner out for leaving early.
My thinking has been that there are many illegal pitches which can actually cause (if that is the correct word) the runner to leave early.

Don't runners time their leaving a base to the pitcher?
Isn't it reasonable to think that it is this illegal infraction could be the cqause of the runner leaving early?

Just wondering if I'm way off base on this one?

I know the case ruling, just seems funny to me.

Only IP's that would cause an issue with the runners timing would be the leap and crow hop as the pitch would not be released as quick as would be from the push-off than what would of happened in a legal pitch.