Force play question, right to occupy base.

[RKBUmp]

Does runner lose the right to occupy the base they are on immediatly upon the hit, or only after the succeeding runner has actually reached the base?

Situation presented to me,

Runners on 1 and 2, ground ball to F6, runner at 2 never leaves bag, F6 runs to 2nd, tags lead runner standing on bag, then tags runner from 1st prior to reaching 2nd.

I say 2 outs, runner on 2nd was forced to vacate the base on the hit. Umpire that presented case called 1 out, runner on 2 not forced to vacate until succeeding runner reaches 2nd.

[MD Longhorn]

There's no such thing as the first sentence.

The umpire flubbed this one big time. This runner was forced the minute the batter became a batter-runner.

Imagine if the umpire was right - runners could avoid obvious double plays by simply staying on the previous base - there's no way anyone could get the 2nd out. 2 outs. Easy call.

[Tex]

I agree. Two outs on this play. The end of play, there is a runner at 1st base.

[SamG]

The only way I can see one out is if F6 somehow got R2 out first.

1) R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. Ball hit to F6, F6 runs and touches 2nd base (before R2 gets there) THEN tags R1 (with R1 never leaving the base).

NSA definition of 'Force Out':

A force out is an out which can be made only when a baserunner loses the right to the base he/she is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or a succeeding baserunner has been put out.

[Tex]

I re-read the initial play. SAMG you are correct. If the defense touches 2nd base first (that is a force out on R2 from 1st), then tags the initial runner at 2nd (R1) still standing on 2nd, that is not a force out. Result of play is runner at 2nd and 1st with one out on play. Not enough stated information on the sequence of tags at 2nd base.

[MD Longhorn]

Why are you two saying there isn't enough information? The post: "tags lead runner standing on bag, then tags runner from 1st prior to reaching 2nd." The order of events is completely spelled out for you. Two outs.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why are you two saying there isn't enough information? The post: "tags lead runner standing on bag, then tags runner from 1st prior to reaching 2nd." The order of events is completely spelled out for you. Two outs.

I think they are assuming that when RKB states "F6 runs to 2nd" that the SS literally ran to and tagged 2B.

If true, they are correct, one out. If not, R1 is forced until a succeeding runner is retired.

[Tex]

That is correct. Did the SS tag R1 at 2nd base before or after touching 2nd base. Maybe the SS didn't even touch 2nd base.

[RKBUmp]

F6 never stepped on bag, said she ran to 2nd, tagged the runner still standing on the bag then tagged the runner from 1st before she reached 2nd.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

F6 never stepped on bag, said she ran to 2nd, tagged the runner still standing on the bag then tagged the runner from 1st before she reached 2nd.

According to NSA, R1 is forced off the bag and should be out by being tagged. That would be my read (although I'm not an ump).

[Andy]

RKB....You better tell me who the "other umpire" is so that we can have a little discussion about this play.....

[greymule]

As a spectator at a school game, I once saw an umpire call a runner from 1B out on a force at home. His reasoning was that the BR had, on his long hit, reached 3B while the runner was still advancing to home. The OC questioned the call but didn't protest.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by greymule

As a spectator at a school game, I once saw an umpire call a runner from 1B out on a force at home. His reasoning was that the BR had, on his long hit, reached 3B while the runner was still advancing to home. The OC questioned the call but didn't protest.

There was a movie about them a while ago.

[MigoP]

In the original scenario given, the runner standing on 2nd is out by being tagged before she obtained 3rd, the base runner is now forced to try to obtain. The runner coming from 1st is out by being tagged prior to reaching the base required because she is now forced to 2nd. Two outs, runner on 1st.