illegal pitch (confession: good for the soul?)

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

She violated NFHS Rule 6-1-1-b, specifically

"this position" is specified in 6-1-1-a,

And, 6-1-1-c has the hands come together:

Yup.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

As I read the replys, I see many of you don't consider what I derscribed as an illegal pitch. So... who does consider this illegal? Once again pitcher walks to plate with hands seperated but as both feet make contact she has put her hands together. Now comes pause. Now comes pitch. Illegal or not according to Fed? Other organizations?

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

First pitch of the evening. Pitcher walks on to plate and immediately puts hands together.

I also concur that this is an illegal pitch. The hands must remain apart long enough fulfill the requirement of NFHS Rule 6-1-1-b. If you don't stop the pitcher from immediately bringing together of the hands what are you going to do when she does this and goes immediately into a pitch?

The penalty for not complying with Rule 6-1-1-b is an illegal pitch, the penalty for quick pitching simply no pitch. See 6-2-4-b

ART. 4 . . . No pitch shall be declared when:
b. the pitcher attempts a quick return of the ball before the batter has taken position or is off balance as a result of a previous pitch.

You may go the entire game without the pitcher taking advantage of not complying with 6-1-1-b or it might cause you more grief later.

That said - I enforce this pretty simply. Was there a discernible pause before bringing the hands together? In other words immediately isn't a pause.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by charliej47

...Taking or simulating can be an eye blink!....

No, it can't. That is a quick pitch.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by marvin

...The penalty for not complying with Rule 6-1-1-b is an illegal pitch, the penalty for quick pitching simply no pitch. See 6-2-4-b....

You're correct; I used the term too loosely.

[ronald]

I had that pitcher from blake and yep I called IP on her.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by marvin

I also concur that this is an illegal pitch. The hands must remain apart long enough fulfill the requirement of NFHS Rule 6-1-1-b. If you don't stop the pitcher from immediately bringing together of the hands what are you going to do when she does this and goes immediately into a pitch?

The penalty for not complying with Rule 6-1-1-b is an illegal pitch, the penalty for quick pitching simply no pitch. See 6-2-4-b

ART. 4 . . . No pitch shall be declared when:
b. the pitcher attempts a quick return of the ball before the batter has taken position or is off balance as a result of a previous pitch.

You may go the entire game without the pitcher taking advantage of not complying with 6-1-1-b or it might cause you more grief later.

That said - I enforce this pretty simply. Was there a discernible pause before bringing the hands together? In other words immediately isn't a pause.

And where does it direct the pitcher or umpire to wait a specific period?

This is obviously something we would have to see since one person's idea of immediate may not be the same as the next.

Is there anything that states that the separated hands must remain still and not move toward each other as the pitcher is "similating" taking her signals?

[marvin]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And where does it direct the pitcher or umpire to wait a specific period?

This is obviously something we would have to see since one person's idea of immediate may not be the same as the next.

Is there anything that states that the separated hands must remain still and not move toward each other as the pitcher is "similating" taking her signals?

There is no set time specified, so umpire judgment comes into play. And nothing I wrote said that the hands have to be still, they (according to the rule) have to be apart during the time the pitcher is "taking or simulating taking" the sign.

I think that enforcement of this is critical because of the reason that I stated in my previous post, allowing it can lead to other issues.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by marvin

There is no set time specified, so umpire judgment comes into play.

My point, thank you.

And nothing I wrote said that the hands have to be still,

Never said you did

they (according to the rule) have to be apart during the time the pitcher is "taking or simulating taking" the sign.

So, watching the catcher, the pitcher steps onto the plate and then brings the hands together is okay as long as the pitcher doesn't walk through the pitch, right?

I think that enforcement of this is critical because of the reason that I stated in my previous post, allowing it can lead to other issues.

No argument, but isn't the question here what is being enforced?

[Little Jimmy]

Irish said...

And where does it direct the pitcher or umpire to wait a specific period?

This is obviously something we would have to see since one person's idea of immediate may not be the same as the next.

Is there anything that states that the separated hands must remain still and not move toward each other as the pitcher is "similating" taking her signals?

You've actually hit the nail on the head as far as what really has me irritated with my enforcement/non enforcement. The specifics are somewhat vague as to what the interpretation should be. Is it OK by the book(any book) for a pitcher to walk onto the pitching plate and at that same moment bring the hands together so that when both feet hit the plate she is together or almost together? Or is it a violation? I 've had veteran umpires, UIC's and various heads of state tell me me their interpretation, and there is no consensus. Some say absolutely not, don't allow it. Others say this is a minor violation at best, don't stop the flow of the game. And each one of these people have positions of authority and many years of experience that would lend creedence to either side of the argument.

Has any official word come down in the past from any organization that said that the motion I have been describing is definitively legal of illegal? Or is it simply up to each of us to decide for ourselves and explain our own personal view to those that question it?

[argodad]

Little Jimmy,

You are right. She was illegal. I probably would have called it early. But the point I'd like to emphasize is that the umpires that called her regular season games could have done everyone a huge favor by enforcing the rules correctly during the season. She would have corrected her problem, and you wouldn't be beating yourself up.

[MD Longhorn]

I think that after all this beating about ... we can agree this was HTBT. What I envisioned on the initial post sounded like nothing - but to others it sounded like something and it all comes down to how we are interpreting your words... I suspect that had we all SEEN the same thing, we'd be more consistent in our opinions regarding whether it was IP or not.

But to your original point - you felt that this was "too big a game" to make such a call. I think it's important that you get that idea out of your head. And reverse it. If it's a big game, it's either equally important or if anything MORE important to call everything correctly, certainly not less. Your mindset going into a game needs to be the reverse of what it sounds like it was.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by ronald

I had that pitcher from blake and yep I called IP on her.

had it mixed up with blair's team

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by argodad

Little Jimmy,

You are right. She was illegal. I probably would have called it early. But the point I'd like to emphasize is that the umpires that called her regular season games could have done everyone a huge favor by enforcing the rules correctly during the season. She would have corrected her problem, and you wouldn't be beating yourself up.

Besides, we forgive you.

[Little Jimmy]

Besides, we forgive you.

Thank you, father.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think that after all this beating about ... we can agree this was HTBT. What I envisioned on the initial post sounded like nothing - but to others it sounded like something and it all comes down to how we are interpreting your words... I suspect that had we all SEEN the same thing, we'd be more consistent in our opinions regarding whether it was IP or not.

But to your original point - you felt that this was "too big a game" to make such a call. I think it's important that you get that idea out of your head. And reverse it. If it's a big game, it's either equally important or if anything MORE important to call everything correctly, certainly not less. Your mindset going into a game needs to be the reverse of what it sounds like it was.

Jimmy:
Taking mb's reply from a different angle....
You chose to pass on the IP for the reason you stated.
But what would you have done if the other team's HC started complaining that "she's illegal"? Do you now say to yourself..."He's right, it's an IP. I know it's an IP because I saw it myself before he ever complained. I better start calling it???"
See the corner you've boxed yourself into?

Is this something that could have been handled by saying something to her coach about it between innings; then calling the IP the next time you saw her not having her hands seperated? Perhaps. But as many have stated, it's a HTBT sitch.
The sitch aside, you've started a good thread here....many thought provoking replies, opinions, and points of view on something that we all have had to deal with at some point.