Occupying the same base

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

just like a live ball appeal. Afterall, when with a runner on 1st there is a line drive to the second baseman he catches the line drive and immediately throws to first to double off the runner...this would be a live ball appeal correct?

Maybe, but let's go just a little further. R1 advanced to 3B before returning to 2B. R2 is standing on 2B before R1 returns. Does R2 now legally occupy 2B? If they tag R2, are they appealing that he left early, or are they tagging him because they think he's not legally occupying 2B?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Maybe, but let's go just a little further. R1 advanced to 3B before returning to 2B. R2 is standing on 2B before R1 returns. Does R2 now legally occupy 2B? If they tag R2, are they appealing that he left early, or are they tagging him because they think he's not legally occupying 2B?

Not unless they say that's what they are doing. And no, R2 does not legally occupy 2B the instant R1 returned and touched the bag... the bag now "belongs" to R1. R2 is out when tagged - not for leaving early - for being the trail runner while 2 people occupy the same base.

I'm really not understand what's not clear nor why you're trying unsuccessfully to make this sound difficult when it's clearly not.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not unless they say that's what they are doing. And no, R2 does not legally occupy 2B the instant R1 returned and touched the bag... the bag now "belongs" to R1. R2 is out when tagged - not for leaving early - for being the trail runner while 2 people occupy the same base.

I'm really not understand what's not clear nor why you're trying unsuccessfully to make this sound difficult when it's clearly not.

Two things:

1 - I'm trying to stir up a little debate here. Yeah, I'm reaching here, and I know it. Some of my posts lately have been along these veins (see my post about 5 man infield). But this board is getting too damn quiet. No one's talking. It may be because some are afraid to, or maybe our numbers are dwindling. Who knows? But it's too damn quiet!

2 - I'm asking about procedure. What do you, as the umpire, verbally say or signal in the situation?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

1 - I'm trying to stir up a little debate here. Yeah, I'm reaching here, and I know it. Some of my posts lately have been along these veins (see my post about 5 man infield). But this board is getting too damn quiet. No one's talking. It may be because some are afraid to, or maybe our numbers are dwindling. Who knows? But it's too damn quiet!

Rabble rouser!!

2 - I'm asking about procedure. What do you, as the umpire, verbally say or signal in the situation?

Here's how I'd handle it. Point at R2 and rule her out for the tag. I'd simply say "Out" while pointing at her. If there's no verbal appeal, I'm going to assume they are tagging the runners because they are both on the same bag.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Rabble rouser!!

Well, I've gotta be honest, guys... I've been getting worried about this board and its participation rates. I know there are a LOT of lurkers, and I wonder if some have been scared off.

I'm trying to bring some of these people out of the woodwork so that they can introduce themselves and get involved in discussions with (in my not-so-humble opinion) some of the top minds in softball officiating. Some of these questions may be basic rule interpretations/applications, but we must always remember our roots and that somewhere out there is an umpire treading the waters we once tread.

Let's give 'em the support they need.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Rabble rouser!!



Here's how I'd handle it. Point at R2 and rule her out for the tag. I'd simply say "Out" while pointing at her. If there's no verbal appeal, I'm going to assume they are tagging the runners because they are both on the same bag.

Is there any practical implication to the distinction? By that I mean, appeal, R2 is out. No appeal R2 is out. And to make it worse, appeal but R2 didn't leave early. R2 is still out. (A runner tagged while off of a base is out even if the purpose of the tag was to execute an appeal). And I suspect you're going to get some grief on the last because it'll look like you're calling them out on the appeal but I don't think there's a mechanic to get out of that.
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[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

Is there any practical implication to the distinction? By that I mean, appeal, R2 is out. No appeal R2 is out. And to make it worse, appeal but R2 didn't leave early. R2 is still out. (A runner tagged while off of a base is out even if the purpose of the tag was to execute an appeal). And I suspect you're going to get some grief on the last because it'll look like you're calling them out on the appeal but I don't think there's a mechanic to get out of that.

Ding ding ding!

This is exactly what I was getting at.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

2 - I'm asking about procedure. What do you, as the umpire, verbally say or signal in the situation?

"She's out." While signaling out. Walk to my position. There's no controversy or anything to worry about here. This is VERY simple. Two people on the same base - the one that has no right to it is out. Move on. The appeal never came into play at all.

Surely you can stir stuff up regarding something that actually has something to stir. This is simple.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

Is there any practical implication to the distinction? By that I mean, appeal, R2 is out. No appeal R2 is out. And to make it worse, appeal but R2 didn't leave early. R2 is still out. (A runner tagged while off of a base is out even if the purpose of the tag was to execute an appeal). And I suspect you're going to get some grief on the last because it'll look like you're calling them out on the appeal but I don't think there's a mechanic to get out of that.

Wow.

Why?

Why would there be any grief ... why would ANYONE assume there's an out on the appeal. They see two people on the same base, a tag, and an out called. And most of them have seen this before. No reason to assume anything. Further - say they DO make this assumption... why in the world would they then cause anyone any grief. What do you possibly envision the coach (or anyone) saying in this situation that could give ANY umpire any grief here.

This horse is dead, packaged, and eaten by now. I'm done.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Wow.

Why?

Why would there be any grief ... why would ANYONE assume there's an out on the appeal. They see two people on the same base, a tag, and an out called. And most of them have seen this before. No reason to assume anything. Further - say they DO make this assumption... why in the world would they then cause anyone any grief. What do you possibly envision the coach (or anyone) saying in this situation that could give ANY umpire any grief here.

This horse is dead, packaged, and eaten by now. I'm done.

Exactly.

I would point at the runner that is out so that there is no confusion as to which runner I am ruling out. If you don't point, R1 may very well think you called her out and step off the bag. Then you're really in the jackpot.

I am not ruling on any appeal until somebody informs me there is an appeal to be made. Otherwise, I am simply ruling on the fact that there are two runners standing on the same bag and that both of them have been tagged.

After looking at this further, I don't think it matters whether or not there is an appeal in the first place. R2 is going to be out for either reason. R1 is still entitled to 2nd base so she has tagged up.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Well, I've gotta be honest, guys... I've been getting worried about this board and its participation rates. I know there are a LOT of lurkers, and I wonder if some have been scared off.

I'm trying to bring some of these people out of the woodwork so that they can introduce themselves and get involved in discussions with (in my not-so-humble opinion) some of the top minds in softball officiating. Some of these questions may be basic rule interpretations/applications, but we must always remember our roots and that somewhere out there is an umpire treading the waters we once tread.

Let's give 'em the support they need.

Heck, I haven't been participating lately for a variety of reasons. (Well, one in particular, but we won't go there.)

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Heck, I haven't been participating lately for a variety of reasons. (Well, one in particular, but we won't go there.)

Oh...and it has nothing to do with this board or its participants!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Exactly.

I would point at the runner that is out so that there is no confusion as to which runner I am ruling out. If you don't point, R1 may very well think you called her out and step off the bag. Then you're really in the jackpot.

I am not ruling on any appeal until somebody informs me there is an appeal to be made. Otherwise, I am simply ruling on the fact that there are two runners standing on the same bag and that both of them have been tagged.

After looking at this further, I don't think it matters whether or not there is an appeal in the first place. R2 is going to be out for either reason. R1 is still entitled to 2nd base so she has tagged up.

My point was that if you change up the OP, you can have a situation that's a little rough. R2 does not leave early. The ball is thrown in and for whatever reason F4 says, R2 left early loud enough for both benches to here and then tags F2 at which point you call R2 out. 1B coach (not a species known for being real bright) goes ballistic, she did not leave early. Though it seems like the conversation will be short. "Not out on the appeal, just tagged out with two runners on the base." My thought in my comment was is there something you could do to avoid even the conversation.
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[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

just like a live ball appeal. Afterall, when with a runner on 1st there is a line drive to the second baseman he catches the line drive and immediately throws to first to double off the runner...this would be a live ball appeal correct?

IMO, if they were making the obvious appeal on R2 leaving 1st early, they would throw to (and tag) 1st. That is the obvious appeal, and you would rule on that. While tagging R1 standing on 2nd MIGHT be an appeal, it isn't obvious, since there is a more 'obvious' reason to tag R2 while R1 is standing on the same base. So, even if intended as a live ball appeal, it still must be either 1) obvious and apparent that they are making an appeal, or else 2) they must verbalize what it is they are appealing.

It doesn't matter if tagging R1 is meant as an appeal, because R1 has returned and is standing on the bag left early. It also doesn't matter that they tag R1 because two runners occupy the same base, when R1 is the lead runner, and therefore entitled to occupy the base.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by youngump

My point was that if you change up the OP, you can have a situation that's a little rough. R2 does not leave early. The ball is thrown in and for whatever reason F4 says, R2 left early loud enough for both benches to here and then tags F2 at which point you call R2 out. 1B coach (not a species known for being real bright) goes ballistic, she did not leave early. Though it seems like the conversation will be short. "Not out on the appeal, just tagged out with two runners on the base." My thought in my comment was is there something you could do to avoid even the conversation.

If you have an out on the tag, then simply say so as you make the out call.