2 runners occupying the same base ...

[3afan]

bases loaded ... here's the pitch, catcher returns ball to pitcher, but R1 on 1st steals 2nd ... R2 already on 2nd and stays there, so for 2-3 seconds there are 2 girls on 2nd base and everyone is confused (not the blue of course!) ... R1 heads back to first, pitcher throws to first (safe) ... now R3 on 3rd is released & goes home, safe .......... so, R1 is back on 1st, R2 still on 2nd -------- and thats what we have. defensive team coach comes out & wants an out for 2 girls occupying one base at the same time, but we tell him he has to make a play. He don't like it .........

Now, if R1 would have stayed on 2nd, & the pitcher did not make a play, I kill the play after giving R1 3-4 seconds (a reasonable amount of time - judgement) to figure out what she did & go back. she can go back and it does not violate the look back rule because she is allowed one stop. but if she stays then we call her out.

comments please - did we handle this correctly ??? by the way it was 10U ... thanks.

[mcrowder]

I'd say you handled the actual situation correctly. The runner must be tagged for an out.

However, your further description is not accurate. You cannot kill this play - it's not over. Don't let the batter into the box. Don't stand in your normal PU position. Look-Back doesn't apply at all in this case. Eventually, one of the coaches will wise up and something will happen.

[TexBlue]

Now, I'm gonna be way in the minority here, but I'm just going by what I was told in an ASA clinic 4 years ago. That runner on 1st base has no right to 2nd. Therefore, she can only commit one way, as far as the LBR goes. She has to go back to 1st. Here's why. We were told to go with the intent of the rule.

1) You can't leave 2 players on the same base, time can't be called until some play(s) occur.

2) We were told that on the LBR, a commitment has to be made quickly. So, therefore, you can't stay on 2nd base and let the blue sort it out. If you call time, you have violated the rules by calling time and taking away the chance for an out from the defense.

3) This one stop thing was discussed and again, we were told that the intent of the rule had to be considered. The intent was to allow a runner to round a base, stop, find the ball and go forward or backward. We were told that if a girl takes enough running steps to a base ( their example was 4 or more steps ) they committed and have to go that way. 3 years ago, Fed came out with the interpretation that the runner could go almost all the way to 2nd, stop and go back to 1st and this was allowed. When I sent this in to ASA, asking how they asked about it, I was told no way. They committed, if they stop after the commitment, they're out. I know ASA doesn't read this way, but this interpretation makes a lot more sense than allowing what happened in your case, or in the one I mentioned above. If you're gonna allow them to do that, why have a LBR at all?

JMHO, but, it's been a whole day since I was told I was wrong, I'm about due.

[mcrowder]

It's been a while since I ran an ASA game, but isn't there part of the rule that tells you when LBR becomes in effect?

In the scenario described above, you can't stop play and call R1 out for standing on 2nd. I can't find the verbiage to interpret that rule that way. (Not to mention that R2 can certainly start heading toward third base).

You mention intent. The purpose (intent) of the rule is to get rid of the intentional stopping between bases to force defense to make a play. I don't believe it's intent was to penalize a runner for heading toward a base that's occupied, if her intent was not to force a play (her intent, in this case, seems to simply be a mistake - it's 10U after all).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA.

All the "intent" and age level aside, the runner STOPPED on a base while the pitcher was in control of the ball inside the circle. That, I believe is an out (8.7.T.2).

In respect to NOT calling time out, I do not have my Case Book with me at work, but I do believe this is covered by a play in it. If I remember correctly, if it is apparent than no further action is going to occur, the umpire should call time and move the runner back to 1B.

Glen or Tom might be able to get to that before I can, but if not, I'll come back if I can find it.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA.

All the "intent" and age level aside, the runner STOPPED on a base while the pitcher was in control of the ball inside the circle. That, I believe is an out (8.7.T.2).

Being the devil's advocate here, 8.7.T.2 says the runner is out if she leaves the base for any reason. Now, SOMEBODY has got to leave the base. The rules state 2 runners cannot occupy the same base. We have a paradox. If she stays on, she's out. If she leaves, she's out. As an umpire, I love this, I'm getting my out one way or the other. But common sense, says maybe a little more verbiage in the LBR rule on 8.7.T.2 could clarify this.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA.

All the "intent" and age level aside, the runner STOPPED on a base while the pitcher was in control of the ball inside the circle. That, I believe is an out (8.7.T.2).

In respect to NOT calling time out, I do not have my Case Book with me at work, but I do believe this is covered by a play in it. If I remember correctly, if it is apparent than no further action is going to occur, the umpire should call time and move the runner back to 1B.

Glen or Tom might be able to get to that before I can, but if not, I'll come back if I can find it.

ASA Case Book Play 8.8.66 [ASA Rules 8-7T' 8-3E; 10-8H]




[Edited by whiskers_ump on May 17th, 2004 at 06:37 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump


Glen or Tom might be able to get to that before I can, but if not, I'll come back if I can find it.



ASA Case Book Play 8.8.66 [ASA Rules 8-7T' 8-3E; 10-8H]

Thanks, Glen.

"8.8-66 (FP Only) Bases loaded (my contraction), R3 advanced to 2B on a passed ball, but R2 does not advance. The pitcher receives the ball in the 8-foot circle from the catcher and the defense make no play on any runner."

Ruling: R3 is not entitled to 2B and does not make an attempt to go back to 1B. After the pitcher has the ball in the 8-foot circle, time should be call and R3 returned to 1B.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Glen or Tom might be able to get to that before I can, but if not, I'll come back if I can find it.

Sorry for being late to this game, but I was out this afternoon calling a JV game!

I see it has been handled by now...

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

Sorry for being late to this game, but I was out this afternoon calling a JV game!

I see it has been handled by now...

Come to Beaumont this weekend and I will give you all the
games you want. [NFSA], using ASA rules, match your pard
and will also put you up.
We got four tournaments in this area...

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA



ASA Case Book Play 8.8.66 [ASA Rules 8-7T' 8-3E; 10-8H]


Thanks, Glen.

"8.8-66 (FP Only) Bases loaded (my contraction), R3 advanced to 2B on a passed ball, but R2 does not advance. The pitcher receives the ball in the 8-foot circle from the catcher and the defense make no play on any runner."

Ruling: R3 is not entitled to 2B and does not make an attempt to go back to 1B. After the pitcher has the ball in the 8-foot circle, time should be call and R3 returned to 1B.

[/B]

OK, still being case book deficient, what is the reasoning for this? That runner on 2nd (R1) has gotta go somewhere. By rule, she can't stay on 2nd, since it was already occupied and no force was in effect on this play. Following this line of reasoning, she has to go somewhere legally, and that can onlY BE 1st. Soooooo, why is the LBR negated? Because she's on a base? By rule, she can't stay on that base! She has to go back to 1st.

Somebody help this ole hick out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by TexBlue

OK, still being case book deficient, what is the reasoning for this? That runner on 2nd (R1) has gotta go somewhere. By rule, she can't stay on 2nd, since it was already occupied and no force was in effect on this play. Following this line of reasoning, she has to go somewhere legally, and that can onlY BE 1st. Soooooo, why is the LBR negated? Because she's on a base? By rule, she can't stay on that base! She has to go back to 1st.

Somebody help this ole hick out? [/B]

No one has violated any rules at this point.

There is no rule forbidding two runners to touch a base simultaneously.

There is no rule stating a pitcher MUST make a play on a runner.

There is a rule which states that once a runner has stopped on a base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, if she leaves that base, she is out.

There is no rule forcing any runner to violate any rules.

The LBR is not negated as if ANY runner leaves their base, they are ruled out unless the pitcher makes a play. But the pitcher knows that if she makes a play toward 2B, the runner on 3B may advance, so she isn't going to make a play.

Everything is within the rules and you cannot force a player to violate the rules. IOW, it is a stand-off, stalemate, whatever you want to call it.

[DaveASA/FED]

Maybe I am missing something, I follow everythign that is beign said. But if I reread the original post it is stated that the pitcher has ball in circle and both runners on 2nd, then R1 heads back to 1st. Wouldn't she be out for leaving a base when the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle and is not making a play? Like Mike described??

Quote:
There is a rule which states that once a runner has stopped on a base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, if she leaves that base, she is out.
End quote


So as described R1 headed back to 1st after pitcher had ball in circle (provided F1 didn't make a play) wouldn't we have a dead ball, runner out??

[mcrowder]

I believe that was his point, and further that my initial reply in this thread was wrong - if no play is pending, and both runners are standing on the base, PU should call time and send runner back to 1B. But if she goes back on her own, she's out. Seems odd - but within the rules as written I can see this interpretation.

Only problems I'm having with it is the assumption that R1 and R2 are now claiming as "their" base second base, and the fact that calling time when it seems to me the play is not over feels wrong.

I can't justify the following in the rulebook, so I'm assuming I'm wrong ... but it seems to me that with the play still in action, we can't call time, and we can't call LBR - so R1 returning to first is still legal (only 1 stop) since she cannot have legally acquired second base. But like I said - I can't justify my logic with the rulebook, so I suppose if this ever actually happens (probably tonight!), I'll call time and send her back.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

No one has violated any rules at this point.

There is no rule forbidding two runners to touch a base simultaneously.

There is no rule stating a pitcher MUST make a play on a runner.

There is a rule which states that once a runner has stopped on a base and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, if she leaves that base, she is out.

There is no rule forcing any runner to violate any rules.

The LBR is not negated as if ANY runner leaves their base, they are ruled out unless the pitcher makes a play. But the pitcher knows that if she makes a play toward 2B, the runner on 3B may advance, so she isn't going to make a play.

Everything is within the rules and you cannot force a player to violate the rules. IOW, it is a stand-off, stalemate, whatever you want to call it.

OK, what about Rule 8.3.E? The one that says 2 runners cannot occupy the same base simultaneously? One of them's gotta go. All possibilities for an out have not been exhausted, since one of them has to leave the base. R1 has no right to the base, so she has to leave it. To me, this is similar to calling time, in the middle of a rundown, because you're tired of waiting for the tag.