Getting the call right

[SamG]

There's no specific play here, and I'm just a fan who's interested in the answer.

There's been a couple posts recently about "backing up your partner". It SEEMS like the thought process is to not say anything if you see a wrong call made, sometimes even if questioned by a coach. Now, maybe that's the way the rules are set up.

But I don't understand why the rules are set up that way. Let's be honest... EVERYONE makes mistakes at times. Why not be able to correct that mistake? It happens in football... one official sees a catch, but another official (with a different angle) saw the receivers foot out of bounds. They get together and make the right call (most of the time).

What's strange is there's at least one instance a PU will ask a BU what he saw... a check swing. So why not do the same on some "bang bang" plays?

I'm trying to just start a discussion, not an argument, I swear.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by SamG

There's no specific play here, and I'm just a fan who's interested in the answer.

There's been a couple posts recently about "backing up your partner". It SEEMS like the thought process is to not say anything if you see a wrong call made, sometimes even if questioned by a coach. Now, maybe that's the way the rules are set up.

But I don't understand why the rules are set up that way. Let's be honest... EVERYONE makes mistakes at times. Why not be able to correct that mistake? It happens in football... one official sees a catch, but another official (with a different angle) saw the receivers foot out of bounds. They get together and make the right call (most of the time).

What's strange is there's at least one instance a PU will ask a BU what he saw... a check swing. So why not do the same on some "bang bang" plays?

I'm trying to just start a discussion, not an argument, I swear.

There are a lot of factors that an umpire uses to decide if he/she will go for help.

1. Each umpire has a particular set of responsibilities. Some are shared, but others are the sole perogative of the umpire who made the call. These responsiblities are listed in the umpires manual.

2. No umpire can override another umpire in making decisions that require a judgment call. This too is by instruction per the manual. Now, if an umpire is misapplying a rule, we can and should get together to make sure the rule is applied correctly. However, that is not overruling another umpire. An example would be allowing a batter to continue batting when they bunted a ball foul with 2 strikes. This would be setting aside a rule and should not be allowed.

3. Umpires should never respond to questions by coaches, players or fans that question another umpires call. If asked directly, the umpire should simply direct the coach/player to the umpire who made the call. That umpire can then decide if they need to go for help.

4. The umpire who made the call will usually not go for help on a judgment call. The reason being is that who is to say the other umpires judgment is better. Especially if the other umpire is much further away and has a different angle, which is often the case. Remember, the other umpire has other responsibilities and those responsibilities may put them in a position with a worse angle and distance to the play.

5. If the coach who is asking for help suggests to the umpire that he may have had a bad angle or there was a pulled foot or bobbled ball, then most umpires will go for help on that type of situation. Anytime a coach suggests that the other umpire may have additional information, most umpires will go for help on that.

6. If the coach/player has been complaining about every call and asking for help on every call, then at some point an umpire is probably going to stop going for help. Coaches need to pick their spots.

In your football example, I bet it is allowed because each official has a different set of responsibilities and they get together to get it right because that is part of the mechanics. I doubt you will see the Referee at the 50 yard line call a pass at the 10 yard incomplete when the covering official is right there making the call.

Why is the judgment of the plate umpire who may be 60 feet away better than the umpire who is 15 feet away?

[PSUchem]

Originally Posted by rwest

5. If the coach who is asking for help suggests to the umpire that he may have had a bad angle or there was a pulled foot or bobbled ball, then most umpires will go for help on that type of situation. Anytime a coach suggests that the other umpire may have additional information, most umpires will go for help on that.

And if the umpire is so arrogant that he/she refuses to go for help, you can bet that he/she won't be getting many more assignments.

[NCASAUmp]

There is some amount of "stand by your partner" involved, but the rules of softball are set up to clearly delineate who is responsible for which call in order to prevent double calls. The LAST thing you want is to have one umpire calling safe while the other is calling out.

An umpire who is really worth his/her salt will go to his/her partner if they believe that there was an aspect of the play that they honestly missed. If I have a crappy angle on a possible pulled foot, I will definitely ask my partner. However, deciding whether or not to go to one's partner is completely up to the umpire whose call it is.

Regardless, in order for calls to be made properly, we must have some segregation of duties between umpires. There MUST be organization on the field, or else we end up with chaos.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by rwest

Why is the judgment of the plate umpire who may be 60 feet away better than the umpire who is 15 feet away?

Let's not ignore that angle is more important than distance. That is the most common reason for getting help and for "changed" calls.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Let's not ignore that angle is more important than distance. That is the most common reason for getting help and for "changed" calls.

However, it is generally taught that you don't go for help on judgement calls. It is still one umpires judgment vs anothers. Who's to say the other umpire is correct? I agree we should give up distance for angle and if a coach suggest to me that my partner may have had a different angle, I'm going to my partner for help. But if it's "I think you blew that call. The runner beat the ball. Can you go for help?". Now it's a purely a judgment call and my partner's judgment may not be any better than mine.

[vcblue]

Part of the beauty of the game is the fact that an umpire may make the same call 8 out of 10 times, but there is still those two times that he/she would have gone the other way. Part of the mechanics of the game is for the players to learn these things and talk with their teammates and adjust. When players get to this level its truly a great game to participate as an umpire.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

There's no specific play here, and I'm just a fan who's interested in the answer.

There's been a couple posts recently about "backing up your partner". It SEEMS like the thought process is to not say anything if you see a wrong call made, sometimes even if questioned by a coach. Now, maybe that's the way the rules are set up.

That is not being said. What is being said is there there are priorities and procedures in place to accommodate possible errors.

But I don't understand why the rules are set up that way. Let's be honest... EVERYONE makes mistakes at times. Why not be able to correct that mistake? It happens in football... one official sees a catch, but another official (with a different angle) saw the receivers foot out of bounds. They get together and make the right call (most of the time).

That is football, where both feet in play means it is a good catch on a live ball, but has no bearing in baseball or softball. The point is those officials are given areas and prescribed mechanics to be in position to make those calls. Areas do overlap.

What's strange is there's at least one instance a PU will ask a BU what he saw... a check swing.

Yeah, when asked to do so. The BU is specifically directed to not respond to anyone other than the PU.

So why not do the same on some "bang bang" plays?

They do as I just described

What makes you think the other umpire is going to have a better view and the this view is more accurate? What happens when this umpire comes running up saying, "no, no, no, the foot was in there, safe", when in fact that umpire did not see F3 tag the runner's hand on the other side of the body?

Umpire mechanics are not something someone dropped from a high window of an ivy-covered tower. They have been worked, developed, tested, worked, tweaked, tested, worked, etc.

If you lurked here, and paid attention, you have read the instances when players and coaches ask for an "appeal" (intentional misuse) of a play to another umpire. Guarantee, games will end due to lack of players more often than now because they WILL be more confrontational on the field and WILL NOT shut up if they do not get their way.

There are certain methods and procedure that affect everything you do in life, from the manner in which you dress yourself to the manner in which you approach a customer or boss.

Would you like to know how many times we have all had players or coaches come out, scream and holler, jump up and down, put on a nice little show, but never tell me why they thought I missed a call or asked me to check with my partner. Can you imagine how contentious things would become if umpires got involved in eash other's call every time someone complained?

Like you said, we all make mistakes and there is a prescribed method to approach the situation. Ever play in a tournament that every player was an umpire? No, really, we used to have a regional umpire tournament that to play, you had to be a registered ASA umpire in your local association. It was fun, but as the umpire, you did not want to screw up. Luckily, we knew how and when to approach things so, at least with us, it did not get out of control. I have, however, seen games get out of control simply because umpires have tried to be accommodating to teams (GAGA-go along to get along).

Do I go for help every time I'm asked? Nope. I will go every time there is something that I could have possibly missed and my partner may have had a better view or more information that could help.

I'm trying to just start a discussion, not an argument, I swear.

Too late to make excuses now, Bubba!

[SamG]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What makes you think the other umpire is going to have a better view and the this view is more accurate? What happens when this umpire comes running up saying, "no, no, no, the foot was in there, safe", when in fact that umpire did not see F3 tag the runner's hand on the other side of the body?

Actually, I'm not assuming the other ump has a better view. Honestly, I understand the other umpire may have been watching another runner(?) or their specific area of responsibility. Using your example but reversed, what if the BU (just assuming) made the 'Safe' call (based on angle, position, whatever), but the PU saw something different (the tag the BU couldn't see) because the BU was blocked by a body.

If you lurked here, and paid attention, you have read the instances when players and coaches ask for an "appeal" (intentional misuse) of a play to another umpire.

I have been lurking here and TRYING to pay attention. I'm a strange one... I like watching behind the scenes and seeing how (and sometimes later finding out the WHY) things are done.

Would you like to know how many times we have all had players or coaches come out, scream and holler, jump up and down, put on a nice little show, but never tell me why they thought I missed a call or asked me to check with my partner.

I'm sure... those are some of the more entertaining posts that I read.

Can you imagine how contentious things would become if umpires got involved in eash other's call every time someone complained?

Yea, I don't know a good way to even suggest implementing an "override".

Do I go for help every time I'm asked? Nope. I will go every time there is something that I could have possibly missed and my partner may have had a better view or more information that could help.

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

Too late to make excuses now, Bubba!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

Actually, I'm not assuming the other ump has a better view. Honestly, I understand the other umpire may have been watching another runner(?) or their specific area of responsibility. Using your example but reversed, what if the BU (just assuming) made the 'Safe' call (based on angle, position, whatever), but the PU saw something different (the tag the BU couldn't see) because the BU was blocked by a body.

In that case, we know when we got blocked, and we still have to make an initial call. If we have enough doubt about our call, we go to our partners IF we think they may have seen the play and had any kind of angle on it. Good umpires can read each other well enough to know if the other has nothing more to offer.

Originally Posted by SamG

I have been lurking here and TRYING to pay attention. I'm a strange one... I like watching behind the scenes and seeing how (and sometimes later finding out the WHY) things are done.

Good time to ask questions.

Originally Posted by SamG

I'm sure... those are some of the more entertaining posts that I read.

We get a good chuckle out of 'em, too!

Originally Posted by SamG

Yea, I don't know a good way to even suggest implementing an "override".

There really is none, and the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

Originally Posted by SamG

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

It really depends upon the situation and sometimes even the UIC we're working for.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

Never before. If I am that blocked that I cannot make a call based on what I could not see, I "give up" the call to my partner. That is not that same as going for help. Once I give up the call, I have no input in the decision making process. As an umpire, you try to recognize the possibility of being blocked-out and adjust, but sometimes you just cannot predict the movement of the fielders in time to make the appropriate adjustments.

If I see the play, I make the call based upon my observations. If there was a pulled foot or any other "issues", I do not assume something happened, I, well my brain makes the call based on what my eyes thought they saw.

Enter the coach. If I believe his argument that something occurred which I could not see, I will go to my partner in a heartbeat. If I am in position to see the entire play and/or there is no possibility my partner had a better view, I'm declining the request.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

There really is none, and the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

I understand there is no "overrule" in the book currently. I'm taking my hypothetical to an extreme and trying to figure out a good way to do one. There's probably not, but it never hurts to ask, right?

[SamG]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Never before. If I am that blocked that I cannot make a call based on what I could not see, I "give up" the call to my partner. That is not that same as going for help. Once I give up the call, I have no input in the decision making process. As an umpire, you try to recognize the possibility of being blocked-out and adjust, but sometimes you just cannot predict the movement of the fielders in time to make the appropriate adjustments.

I know I'm throwing a lot of hypotheticals in, and I apologize. I'm just trying to picture this all. Say you're blocked from a call. If I understand you correctly, you don't make a call at all, but let your partner make the call. What if they were focused somewhere else?

I hope I'm not making anyone upset. I'm just trying to educate myself more in the sport.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by rwest

However, it is generally taught that you don't go for help on judgement calls. It is still one umpires judgment vs anothers. Who's to say the other umpire is correct? I agree we should give up distance for angle and if a coach suggest to me that my partner may have had a different angle, I'm going to my partner for help. But if it's "I think you blew that call. The runner beat the ball. Can you go for help?". Now it's a purely a judgment call and my partner's judgment may not be any better than mine.

I was not implying we should go for help anytime a partner might have a better angle. Just making the point that when we do, that is usually the reason and, unless a partner is extremely near-sighted, we all can see a play from 60 - 90 feet away, so angle is more important.

Actually had a coach ask my BU partner to ask me because of better angle (he thought) on a play at 2nd. No matter, BU had it covered very well and correctly refused the request.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

I understand there is no "overrule" in the book currently. I'm taking my hypothetical to an extreme and trying to figure out a good way to do one. There's probably not, but it never hurts to ask, right?

Nope, never hurts to ask. Umpiring is one of those things that, I think, is a great big mystery to most people. If you really want some good insight into the mindset of umpires, read Bruce Weber's As They See 'Em: A Fan's Travels in the Land of Umpires. GREAT book. Available here from Amazon.