Getting the call right

[argodad]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

... the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

One of my all-time favorite quotes on a softball field. PU in a 3-ump JUCO game changed his call on a play at the plate after the three of us got together. Coach comes out yelling, "You can't let them overrule you!" PU calmly says, "They didn't overrule me Coach. They offered me a veritable plethora of information which I did not previously possess." Coach slowly walked back to the dugout.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by argodad

One of my all-time favorite quotes on a softball field. PU in a 3-ump JUCO game changed his call on a play at the plate after the three of us got together. Coach comes out yelling, "You can't let them overrule you!" PU calmly says, "They didn't overrule me Coach. They offered me a veritable plethora of information which I did not previously possess." Coach slowly walked back to the dugout.

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

I know I'm throwing a lot of hypotheticals in, and I apologize. I'm just trying to picture this all. Say you're blocked from a call. If I understand you correctly, you don't make a call at all, but let your partner make the call. What if they were focused somewhere else?

Well, that is why there are mechanics. I know where my partner is supposed to be and what his/her duties are on every play.....in a perfect world.

Since we do not live in a perfect world, I look first before going to a partner. If s/he is not available, I have to evaluate the entire situation and render a call.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by SamG

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

Maybe we haven't been clear enough, but the ONLY WAY this can happen on a judgment call is if the calling official (in this the PU) asks his partner(s) if they have additional information. It is a RULE that other umpires may not volunteer information to seek to change a call.

ASA 10-3.B "Under no circumstances will any umpire seek to reverse a decision made by an associate ...... unless asked to do so."

NFHS 10-1-4 "No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it."

NCAA 15-2-h "... however the final decision shall rest with the umpire ... who requests the opinion of the other umpire(s)."

No cover up, no conspiracy, no "backing"; it is absolutely against the rules to offer a differing opinion unless asked by the calling umpire.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No cover up, no conspiracy, no "backing"; it is absolutely against the rules to offer a differing opinion unless asked by the calling umpire.

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by SamG

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

Because then it looks like overruling. Besides that making call's ain't a thing of getting together with tea and coffee and then deside what the call should be.
Keep the speed into the game, do slow it down just for getting together and make a call. The umpire responsible makes the call, if he needs help; he's gotta go for it

Originally Posted by SamG

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

Yes, I've been in that situation. After the game in our dressingroom we discussed what happened and what I saw. What the call with that extra info should have been and how it could have effected the game. No hard feelings between me and my partner. This happens and we have to deal with it.
If a runner misses a base, I saw it, DC ain't appealing then we don't have an out!

[charliej47]

Originally Posted by SamG

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

YOU have NOT been "LISTENING"! Everyone makes a bad or wrong call BUT they make the call!

If YOU,not your partners, but YOU think YOU need more infor for whatever reason, such as a coach asking you to get help or because you think there might have been a pulled foot, then YOU go for help.

There has been times when I had a different "look" at my partner's call and from where I was it looked like he was wrong, but HE did not come to me so we went with his call.

Anytime there is judgment, there will be different points of view, BUT the only one that counts is the one by the calling official.

[vcblue]

Sam It has been said a few times in this post the umpire have certain responsibilities. So think about it I am the BU making a close call at 1st (my call). I call her safe. The D coach comes running out and does not ask if the foot was pulled (in this case it was not), but to tell me she was out and I need to go to my partner for help. Now let's say I am a rookie and I go to my partner (also a rookie) and he tells me that he had her out. So I change my call. Oy Vey

What do you think the O Coach is going to do? What question might he/she ask? How do I justify changing my call? Why is the PUs judgment (running down the line) any better than mine?

So come out with the right questions. Did she pull her foot? Did F4 run right in front of you block your sight so you had to call her safe? Just think of a question to ask that will justify the blue going to his/her partner for help. It is that easy. Otherwise stay in your dugout and passively tell the blue what you thought of the call by telling your players you thought she was out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

Sam, we have gotten to the point where you are going to "what if" and "how come, why" us until you get the answer you want. That isn't going to happen. You need to get into umpiring, attend a few clinics, a school and then get back to us.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by SamG

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

He was in good position (1B line extended), but the runner slid toward the fair territory side of the plate and ended up blocked. F2 dropped the ball as she made the tag and scooped it back up quickly. He called the runner out, but quickly "invited" us to get together when the offense (in the 1B dugout) went crazy.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sam, we have gotten to the point where you are going to "what if" and "how come, why" us until you get the answer you want. That isn't going to happen. You need to get into umpiring, attend a few clinics, a school and then get back to us.

Sam... breathe deep..... breathe again..and pay CAREFUL attention to what whitey just said.....yah..we have ALL screwed up calls that went uncorrected. Seems like its time for you to learn the WHY.

[SamG]

I wanted to let you know I'm done with the thread. Thank you all for your input.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Sam... breathe deep..... breathe again..and pay CAREFUL attention to what whitey just said.....yah..we have ALL screwed up calls that went uncorrected. Seems like its time for you to learn the WHY.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yeah, I have a beard now, but you wouldn't catch me wearing that Yankees stuff. Ain't the same team.

Meanwhile, Dave, here I am sitting in one of these signature white rockers at CLT and it is awfully chilly and overcast. I thought this was the south.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, I have a beard now, but you wouldn't catch me wearing that Yankees stuff. Ain't the same team.

Amen to that...

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Meanwhile, Dave, here I am sitting in one of these signature white rockers at CLT and it is awfully chilly and overcast. I thought this was the south.

Yeah, I'll see what I can do. Might make the hamsters that generate our electricity run a little faster down here.