infeild fly, call/no call

[canump]

Youngumps post (2 mistakes) got me remembering about a discussion this past summer at a tournament. We were in a long rain delay so the UIC thought it would be a good idea if we had a question and answer session.
The group was a mixture of young and senor umps. One of the younger gals asked about, and described a very similar IF sit where she froze and nothing got verbalized. The ball fell in between F3 & F1 as they both called for it, then stepped back. Everyone advanced safely in the confusion, including the batter. Her question was "Does a non verbal IF call still get the out if everybody advances safely?" The general census was yes until the UIC spoke.
He said he was working at the ISC Worlds when this happened and the out was called after the fact. Offense protested after a long discussion and the call got reversed by the powers that be at these tourns.
The apparent reasoning or ruling was, " The infeild fly rule is in place to protect the offense runners. If everybody advances safely after a non call there is no more reason to protect the offense" I probably have the wording $crewed up but that was then general words used.
I've talked to a few UIC (CASA rule set) since and they disagree. They say a rule is a rule is a rule, to which I agree.
Any thoughts or comments?
RD

[NCASAUmp]

I think that's a chicken $hit way out of enforcing the rule. The UIC is correct in saying that it's to protect the offense by removing the force on R1 and R2 (and R3, if there is one). But this is only half of the rule.

The UIC's interpretation mentioned in this post is only a survival technique, and I wouldn't recommend it to any umpire on any level. The rule is crystal clear.

Yes, you can call it after the fact, but you should call it as soon as you determine it's an IFF. If you have to correct a non-call after the fact, then so be it, but this IS correctable.

[canump]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think that's a chicken $hit way out of enforcing the rule. The UIC is correct in saying that it's to protect the offense by removing the force on R1 and R2 (and R3, if there is one). But this is only half of the rule.

The UIC's interpretation mentioned in this post is only a survival technique, and I wouldn't recommend it to any umpire on any level. The rule is crystal clear.

Yes, you can call it after the fact, but you should call it as soon as you determine it's an IFF. If you have to correct a non-call after the fact, then so be it, but this IS correctable.

what's bugging me on this is the fact that this supposidly occured at the ISC Worlds where the so called upper echelon of umps work. What are they doing missing an infeild fly call, their UIC making that ruling and those players of that caliber missing or lettinf an infeild fly fall to the ground.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by canump

what's bugging me on this is the fact that this supposidly occured at the ISC Worlds where the so called upper echelon of umps work. What are they doing missing an infeild fly call, their UIC making that ruling and those players of that caliber missing or lettinf an infeild fly fall to the ground.

I've come across some ISC umps who will bend over backwards to shut up the loudest complainers. Doesn't surprise me in the 'just about anything goes' world of men's ball.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by canump

what's bugging me on this is the fact that this supposidly occured at the ISC Worlds where the so called upper echelon of umps work. What are they doing missing an infeild fly call, their UIC making that ruling and those players of that caliber missing or lettinf an infeild fly fall to the ground.

Everyone's human. Some just abuse the privilege.

But seriously, it was probably because they didn't want to deal with it. There are some who just can't take the heat, and they don't belong in the kitchen. Calls like these do a disservice to every other umpire out there.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I think that's a chicken $hit way out of enforcing the rule. The UIC is correct in saying that it's to protect the offense by removing the force on R1 and R2 (and R3, if there is one). But this is only half of the rule.

The UIC's interpretation mentioned in this post is only a survival technique, and I wouldn't recommend it to any umpire on any level. The rule is crystal clear.

Yes, you can call it after the fact, but you should call it as soon as you determine it's an IFF. If you have to correct a non-call after the fact, then so be it, but this IS correctable.

if you go back and enforce the rule when you realize you didn't call it do you send the runners back?

Seems to me you can't "halfway" enforce the rule but do you penalize the offense for your mistake?

I know what I would do and what I've done in the past I just want to hear some other ideas.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

if you go back and enforce the rule when you realize you didn't call it do you send the runners back?

Seems to me you can't "halfway" enforce the rule but do you penalize the offense for your mistake?

I know what I would do and what I've done in the past I just want to hear some other ideas.

Only if the reversal of my call places them in jeopardy. There was no catch, so there are no appeals for not tagging up. Runners may advance, and they did. We just have an out on the BR, which is what should have been called in the first place.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

if you go back and enforce the rule when you realize you didn't call it do you send the runners back?

Seems to me you can't "halfway" enforce the rule but do you penalize the offense for your mistake?

I know what I would do and what I've done in the past I just want to hear some other ideas.

Assuming you are referring to runners who advanced safely and IF I had to enforce an IFF after the fact, I would not return the runners. Since there was no call, the defense was not placed at a disadvantage. If the runners safely advanced, they obviously were not placed at a disadvantage by the no call.

[NCASAUmp]

Not to mention the fact that 9 times out of 10, the runners are holding, anticipating a caught fly ball.

So, Mike, are you saying that you'd enforce the IFF after the dust settles?

[canump]

I do want to mention that the UIC of that discussion group where we were discussing the was not saying this was the right call, he was just saying what happened at the worlds when he was there. (Year unknown, location unknown)
I have no problem of calling IF after the fact, i've eaten crow before, but I would not be moving runners back.

[NCASAUmp]

Well, this kind of play happens a lot. Sometimes, the fans and teams get so loud, they just can't hear you.

THAT'S when things get to be a huge fuster-cluck.

[7in60]

IFF is a rule that is applicable, call or not. BR is out, the other runners may advance at their own risk.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Not to mention the fact that 9 times out of 10, the runners are holding, anticipating a caught fly ball.

So, Mike, are you saying that you'd enforce the IFF after the dust settles?

If I screwed up and missed it, yeah. Wouldn't you?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Well, this kind of play happens a lot. Sometimes, the fans and teams get so loud, they just can't hear you.

THAT'S when things get to be a huge fuster-cluck.

You are right, happens all the time. Don't know how many times my partner or I have killed a play and they keep on playing. When it is all over, you announce the ruling and then some moron comes up and says, "Blue, you have to call that right away."

Trust me, I am not a quiet guy on the field. If I make a call, everyone knows it on my field and those adjacent. I will not chase them around the field and try to get them to stop, nor will I continually repeat the call until someone wakes up.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If I screwed up and missed it, yeah. Wouldn't you?

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You are right, happens all the time. Don't know how many times my partner or I have killed a play and they keep on playing. When it is all over, you announce the ruling and then some moron comes up and says, "Blue, you have to call that right away."

Trust me, I am not a quiet guy on the field. If I make a call, everyone knows it on my field and those adjacent. I will not chase them around the field and try to get them to stop, nor will I continually repeat the call until someone wakes up.

I'm not exactly known for being "soft-spoken," either, but every now and then, you can only belt it out so much. I've literally been heard a city block away, and around the corner.