Getting the call right

[SamG]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What makes you think the other umpire is going to have a better view and the this view is more accurate? What happens when this umpire comes running up saying, "no, no, no, the foot was in there, safe", when in fact that umpire did not see F3 tag the runner's hand on the other side of the body?

Actually, I'm not assuming the other ump has a better view. Honestly, I understand the other umpire may have been watching another runner(?) or their specific area of responsibility. Using your example but reversed, what if the BU (just assuming) made the 'Safe' call (based on angle, position, whatever), but the PU saw something different (the tag the BU couldn't see) because the BU was blocked by a body.

If you lurked here, and paid attention, you have read the instances when players and coaches ask for an "appeal" (intentional misuse) of a play to another umpire.

I have been lurking here and TRYING to pay attention. I'm a strange one... I like watching behind the scenes and seeing how (and sometimes later finding out the WHY) things are done.

Would you like to know how many times we have all had players or coaches come out, scream and holler, jump up and down, put on a nice little show, but never tell me why they thought I missed a call or asked me to check with my partner.

I'm sure... those are some of the more entertaining posts that I read.

Can you imagine how contentious things would become if umpires got involved in eash other's call every time someone complained?

Yea, I don't know a good way to even suggest implementing an "override".

Do I go for help every time I'm asked? Nope. I will go every time there is something that I could have possibly missed and my partner may have had a better view or more information that could help.

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

Too late to make excuses now, Bubba!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

Actually, I'm not assuming the other ump has a better view. Honestly, I understand the other umpire may have been watching another runner(?) or their specific area of responsibility. Using your example but reversed, what if the BU (just assuming) made the 'Safe' call (based on angle, position, whatever), but the PU saw something different (the tag the BU couldn't see) because the BU was blocked by a body.

In that case, we know when we got blocked, and we still have to make an initial call. If we have enough doubt about our call, we go to our partners IF we think they may have seen the play and had any kind of angle on it. Good umpires can read each other well enough to know if the other has nothing more to offer.

Originally Posted by SamG

I have been lurking here and TRYING to pay attention. I'm a strange one... I like watching behind the scenes and seeing how (and sometimes later finding out the WHY) things are done.

Good time to ask questions.

Originally Posted by SamG

I'm sure... those are some of the more entertaining posts that I read.

We get a good chuckle out of 'em, too!

Originally Posted by SamG

Yea, I don't know a good way to even suggest implementing an "override".

There really is none, and the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

Originally Posted by SamG

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

It really depends upon the situation and sometimes even the UIC we're working for.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

There really is none, and the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

I understand there is no "overrule" in the book currently. I'm taking my hypothetical to an extreme and trying to figure out a good way to do one. There's probably not, but it never hurts to ask, right?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by SamG

I understand there is no "overrule" in the book currently. I'm taking my hypothetical to an extreme and trying to figure out a good way to do one. There's probably not, but it never hurts to ask, right?

Nope, never hurts to ask. Umpiring is one of those things that, I think, is a great big mystery to most people. If you really want some good insight into the mindset of umpires, read Bruce Weber's As They See 'Em: A Fan's Travels in the Land of Umpires. GREAT book. Available here from Amazon.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

... the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

One of my all-time favorite quotes on a softball field. PU in a 3-ump JUCO game changed his call on a play at the plate after the three of us got together. Coach comes out yelling, "You can't let them overrule you!" PU calmly says, "They didn't overrule me Coach. They offered me a veritable plethora of information which I did not previously possess." Coach slowly walked back to the dugout.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by argodad

One of my all-time favorite quotes on a softball field. PU in a 3-ump JUCO game changed his call on a play at the plate after the three of us got together. Coach comes out yelling, "You can't let them overrule you!" PU calmly says, "They didn't overrule me Coach. They offered me a veritable plethora of information which I did not previously possess." Coach slowly walked back to the dugout.

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by SamG

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

Maybe we haven't been clear enough, but the ONLY WAY this can happen on a judgment call is if the calling official (in this the PU) asks his partner(s) if they have additional information. It is a RULE that other umpires may not volunteer information to seek to change a call.

ASA 10-3.B "Under no circumstances will any umpire seek to reverse a decision made by an associate ...... unless asked to do so."

NFHS 10-1-4 "No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it."

NCAA 15-2-h "... however the final decision shall rest with the umpire ... who requests the opinion of the other umpire(s)."

No cover up, no conspiracy, no "backing"; it is absolutely against the rules to offer a differing opinion unless asked by the calling umpire.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No cover up, no conspiracy, no "backing"; it is absolutely against the rules to offer a differing opinion unless asked by the calling umpire.

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by SamG

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

Because then it looks like overruling. Besides that making call's ain't a thing of getting together with tea and coffee and then deside what the call should be.
Keep the speed into the game, do slow it down just for getting together and make a call. The umpire responsible makes the call, if he needs help; he's gotta go for it

Originally Posted by SamG

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

Yes, I've been in that situation. After the game in our dressingroom we discussed what happened and what I saw. What the call with that extra info should have been and how it could have effected the game. No hard feelings between me and my partner. This happens and we have to deal with it.
If a runner misses a base, I saw it, DC ain't appealing then we don't have an out!

[charliej47]

Originally Posted by SamG

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

YOU have NOT been "LISTENING"! Everyone makes a bad or wrong call BUT they make the call!

If YOU,not your partners, but YOU think YOU need more infor for whatever reason, such as a coach asking you to get help or because you think there might have been a pulled foot, then YOU go for help.

There has been times when I had a different "look" at my partner's call and from where I was it looked like he was wrong, but HE did not come to me so we went with his call.

Anytime there is judgment, there will be different points of view, BUT the only one that counts is the one by the calling official.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

Sam, we have gotten to the point where you are going to "what if" and "how come, why" us until you get the answer you want. That isn't going to happen. You need to get into umpiring, attend a few clinics, a school and then get back to us.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by SamG

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

He was in good position (1B line extended), but the runner slid toward the fair territory side of the plate and ended up blocked. F2 dropped the ball as she made the tag and scooped it back up quickly. He called the runner out, but quickly "invited" us to get together when the offense (in the 1B dugout) went crazy.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by argodad

"They didn't overrule me Coach. They offered me a veritable plethora of information which I did not previously possess."

i am taking this one.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by ronald

i am taking this one.

I borrowed it from Fredeaux, everyone else is welcome to it!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SamG

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

Never before. If I am that blocked that I cannot make a call based on what I could not see, I "give up" the call to my partner. That is not that same as going for help. Once I give up the call, I have no input in the decision making process. As an umpire, you try to recognize the possibility of being blocked-out and adjust, but sometimes you just cannot predict the movement of the fielders in time to make the appropriate adjustments.

If I see the play, I make the call based upon my observations. If there was a pulled foot or any other "issues", I do not assume something happened, I, well my brain makes the call based on what my eyes thought they saw.

Enter the coach. If I believe his argument that something occurred which I could not see, I will go to my partner in a heartbeat. If I am in position to see the entire play and/or there is no possibility my partner had a better view, I'm declining the request.