Courtesy runner in top of the 1st

[RadioBlue]

FED rules. After doing quite a bit of research on this one, I can see both sides on this. What say you?

SITUATION:
At the pre-game conference, lineups for both teams are accepted as official. The visitors have a DP hitting for their FLEX who's pitching. Before the end of the pregame conference, but after the lineups have been accepted as official, the visiting manager indicates she wishes to bring her DP in to play defense as pitcher. If the DP (who's now the pitcher) reaches base in the 1st inning, is she allowed a courtesy runner?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

FED rules. After doing quite a bit of research on this one, I can see both sides on this. What say you?

SITUATION:
At the pre-game conference, lineups for both teams are accepted as official. The visitors have a DP hitting for their FLEX who's pitching. Before the end of the pregame conference, but after the lineups have been accepted as official, the visiting manager indicates she wishes to bring her DP in to play defense as pitcher. If the DP (who's now the pitcher) reaches base in the 1st inning, is she allowed a courtesy runner?

Yes, when the DP is reported as the pitcher, she becomes the listed pitcher, which is the requirement in the top of the first.
The only constraint is facing one batter in the bottom of the inning.

What is the "other side"?

[MGKBLUE]

The other side is the interpretation we have.

The wording listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire during the pre-game meeting.

In this case we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning. Therefore in the OP, the DP remains the DP for the top of the first inning.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MGKBLUE

The other side is the interpretation we have.

The wording listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire during the pre-game meeting.

In this case we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning. Therefore in the OP, the DP remains the DP for the top of the first inning.

I have not seen any interp that says "listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire".
I have not seen any interp that says the DP may not replace the FLEX in the top of the first. The "listed pitcher" rule is about CR and applies to whoever would be eligible for a CR in the top of the first. In the OP, that is the player listed as DP and pitcher.

[PSUchem]

All of this can be handled by not allowing "future" substitutions. If the coach wants his DP to play defense for his flex, then he should inform the umpire when his team moves to defense.

What if you were to allow such a substitution, and allow a courtesy runner for the "future pitcher" and then the coach turns around and reenters his flex to start the bottom of the inning? Then you've just allowed a courtesy runner for a regular batter.

I agree with those that say the line up is official as accepted during pregame conference. The pitcher for the visiting team who is listed in the line up must pitch in the bottom of the inning, and has the right to a courtesy runner in the top of the inning.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by PSUchem

...What if you were to allow such a substitution, and allow a courtesy runner for the "future pitcher" and then the coach turns around and reenters his flex to start the bottom of the inning? Then you've just allowed a courtesy runner for a regular batter.....

You don't allow the re-entry. Fed rule 8-9-2.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by MGKBLUE

... we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning.

I don't believe there's a requirement in FED that the pitcher listed is required to face a batter. Considering that, just because the coach says they are planning to have the DP pitch, what is to stop the DP in the bottom half of the first inning from just going to the F9 position and having the player listed as F9 start the game pitching.

In organizations where the pitcher listed on the line-up is required to face a batter, I don't think the Flex can leave until she faces said batter.

I don't see how a courtesy runner would be legal either way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

I don't believe there's a requirement in FED that the pitcher listed is required to face a batter.

NFHS requires the listed pitcher and catcher from the visitors face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning. 8.9.2 (Page 69 of 2010 Rule Book)

[RadioBlue]

The points raised in this thread present the sides of the argument to which I was referring.

Of course, the reason the coach is presenting the lineup at the pre-game meeting is so he/she has the DP/FLEX option to use. Obviously, he/she is wanting her good hitting pitcher (DP) to continue in the event the starting pitcher needs to be relived by her weaker hitting FLEX.

I subscribe to the "projected substitution" theory. The DP won't enter as the pitcher until the bottom of the 1st and the substitution shouldn't be accepted until the team is on defense.

However, since the FLEX is listed as the starting pitcher, she won't bat and never require a CR since she isn't playing offense. The only requirement is the starting pitcher faces the first batter for purposes of the CR rule. If she's not playing offense and would never use a CR, does this requirement apply to a starting pitcher who is a FLEX? There is no requirement that the home team's starting pitcher (as listed on the lineup) be required to face the first batter.

Of course, there's no case book play which offers a ruling.

[CecilOne]

The OP is not a future or projected substitution. Future or projected substitution are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over.

The replacement of FLEX by DP is proper, can be done immediately after lineup is accepted or any other time. Per the rule cites by Tom & Mike, the DP player can not be replaced on defense until facing a batter.

Of course, that rule is meant to apply to the listed pitcher when she bats in the top of first (not subs after that), and if I were rules maker, maybe only if a CR is used.

I have a tangent, semi-hijack about this for later.

[Dakota]

For those who have said there is no rule requiring the pitcher to face one batter, there IS a rule that requires the pitcher or catcher to face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning (by context, since this is in the Courtesy Runner rule, I assume this rule applies only if either player used a courtesy runner in the top of the first inning... otherwise, lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal. But, strictly speaking, the rule does not say that.)

Rule 8-9

ART. 2 . . . In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense. Thereafter, the pitcher and catcher are identified as the last players who physically played that position on defense. The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base) in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.

[clev1967]

I read the rule regarding facing one batter differently. 3-6-d (2009 book) states a player may be substituted for at any time. My interp is that only when a player is courtesy ran for in the top of the first must they face one batter in the bottom of the inning- this is why the catcher is included in that rule and why it is listed in the courtesy runner section.

Think about the reasoning. Two really good teams with stud pitchers going at it.(a game in which one run would be huge) Visiting team has a big hitter who cannot run listed as catcher she gets on in the top of first and is run for with a courtesy runner who is fast. Then after top of 1 regular catcher is substituted in for the original catcher.

The Starting pitcher being listed as DP and the flex listed as the P (who does not throw a P) has been a long used strategic move (Candrea has used it often) and is legal and the player listed as P does not have to throw a pitch I say.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

there IS a rule that requires the pitcher or catcher to face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning (by context, since this is in the Courtesy Runner rule, I assume this rule applies only if either player used a courtesy runner in the top of the first inning... otherwise, lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal. But, strictly speaking, the rule does not say that.)

Rule 8-9

Why is the "lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal", when DP for FLEX is a legal replacement and the DP player is the listed pitcher before she or anyone bats?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by clev1967

(Candrea has used it often)

This discussion is not about NCAA.

[clev1967]

Yes I know, did not figure if I threw out a local High School Coach's name anyone would know who I was referring to.